M: Do a little bit of linguistic history research for me, please. In a legal sense, please define for me what the word appropriate would have meant around the time that the Constitution and the first round of laws regarding the nation of America were being formed.
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G: Yes. There are actually two closely related founding-era senses, and the distinction matters legally.
The best near-contemporary American dictionary evidence is Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary—about forty years after the Constitution, but close enough to preserve the early American usage. Webster gives the verb appropriate first as:
“To set apart for, or assign to a particular use, in exclusion of all other uses.” citeturn0search0turn0search1
He also gives the adjective as “belonging peculiarly” or “set apart for a particular use,” and then as “most suitable, fit or proper.” citeturn0search0
So around the founding period, I would distinguish these:
1. “To appropriate” something — especially money or property
This had a quite concrete legal meaning:
to designate/set apart a particular thing or fund for a specified purpose.
Thus, if Congress appropriated $10,000 for fortifications, the central idea wasn't simply Congress authorized spending $10,000. It was closer to:
Congress has assigned this $10,000 to this particular governmental use.
The exclusivity is significant. Once something has been appropriated to X, it has conceptually been set apart from the general pool for X. That underlying meaning survives very clearly in modern appropriations law. Webster's definition explicitly says “in exclusion of all other uses.” citeturn0search0
There was also an older property-law sense: to appropriate could mean taking something into one's own possession or exclusive right. Both senses descend from Latin ad + proprius—roughly, making something one's own/proper/particular thing. citeturn0search0
2. “Appropriate” as an adjective
Here the founding-era meaning was approximately:
properly fitted, suitable, or particularly adapted to a thing or purpose.
That sense becomes constitutionally important almost immediately after the founding. In McCulloch v. Maryland (1819), Chief Justice Marshall famously described the Necessary and Proper Clause this way:
“all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end”
provided they aren't prohibited and are consistent with the Constitution. citeturn0search16
Notice that Marshall effectively glosses appropriate with “plainly adapted to that end.” The modern Constitution Annotated likewise treats this as part of the McCulloch test. citeturn0search6turn0search8
So if I had to write a founding-era legal definition broad enough to cover both senses, I'd put it this way:
APPROPRIATE: To make or designate something as proper to a particular person, purpose, or use; or, adjectivally, something properly fitted or adapted to that purpose.
And there's a useful conceptual core underneath both meanings:
appropriate → proper to → belonging/fitted/assigned particularly to X.
That's somewhat stronger and more relational than the modern conversational sense of appropriate meaning merely “acceptable” or “not improper.”
If you're looking at a particular phrase in the Constitution or an early statute containing appropriate, give me the passage. The grammatical distinction between appropriate (verb) and appropriate (adjective) could make a substantial difference to what the provision originally conveyed.
M: So, without asking you to weigh in on the effectiveness of the argument, because that tends to be subjective and have to do with who's listening and their subjective wants, would you say that there's an argument to be made that if the Supreme Court tries to say that appropriate involves a judgment as to whether or not a law is an appropriately engaged one, that they are way out of their definitional depth on that, given how the word was used at the time when the law was written?
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G: Yes—with one important historical correction to the premise.
If you're talking about the phrase “appropriate legislation” in the Reconstruction Amendments, rather than appropriate in an ordinary statute, then the relevant drafting period isn't 1787–89 but 1865–1870. The Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments all give Congress enforcement authority using essentially that formulation. citeturn0search7
And with that correction, yes, there is a serious textual/historical argument very close to what you're describing. I wouldn't phrase it quite as “the Court is outside the definition of the word,” because appropriate did contain an evaluative component. The stronger argument is that the Court may have changed what is being evaluated.
Historically, appropriate legislation can naturally mean legislation fitted, adapted, or suitable to accomplishing the constitutionally specified end. That's consistent with Marshall's famous McCulloch formulation: means that are “appropriate” are means “plainly adapted” to the legitimate constitutional end. And there is scholarship arguing that the Reconstruction Framers deliberately borrowed appropriate against that McCulloch background. citeturn0search33turn0search10
That gives you an important distinction:
Is this legislation appropriate to enforcing the constitutional command?
is not necessarily the same question as
Does the judiciary consider Congress's chosen degree or manner of enforcement appropriately calibrated?
That second move is basically where the modern controversy arises.
In City of Boerne v. Flores (1997), the Court constructed its “congruence and proportionality” test: there must be sufficient congruence and proportionality between the constitutional injury and Congress's legislative remedy. Congress gets “wide latitude,” but the Court ultimately determines whether Congress crossed the line. citeturn0search0
And this isn't merely your novel objection to Boerne. The relationship between McCulloch's understanding of “appropriate” and the considerably more judicially supervised Boerne test is an actual constitutional-law controversy. citeturn0search10
So I would sharpen your proposition to:
The textual question is whether “appropriate” gives courts authority to judge the wisdom/proportionality of Congress's chosen enforcement mechanism, or merely describes the required relationship between the legislation and the constitutionally authorized end.
Those aren't equivalent.
For example, suppose an amendment says:
Congress may prevent X by appropriate legislation.
Under the older McCulloch-type reading, a court can certainly ask:
“Is this actually legislation directed toward preventing X?”
If Congress passes something wholly unrelated and merely labels it enforcement of X, appropriate doesn't save it.
But that's different from:
“Yes, this really is legislation designed to prevent X, but we think Congress has gone farther than was proportionate to the demonstrated incidence of X, so it isn't sufficiently ‘appropriate.’”
That's the additional judicial judgment introduced by Boerne. The Court explicitly said that legislation could be so disproportionate to its remedial/preventive object that it ceases to qualify. citeturn0search0
So your linguistic argument has a real target, but I'd modify “way out of their definitional depth.” The historical definition doesn't eliminate judicial review; appropriate itself implies a relationship between means and authorized end that can be tested.
The more precise challenge is:
Where does the historical meaning “fitted/adapted to the authorized end” supply the additional concept of judicially determined proportionality?
That is a much harder question for the Court than simply pointing to the word appropriate, because “appropriate” does not by itself obviously mean “proportionate according to an independently imposed judicial standard.” And Boerne's actual words “congruence and proportionality” aren't in the Amendment. citeturn0search0
There is also a plausible counter-direction: appropriate necessarily means more than merely related to, so courts need some rule for deciding when the relationship becomes too attenuated. Boerne can be defended as supplying that rule rather than rewriting the word. The historical dispute is therefore over how deferential that means–end inquiry was supposed to be, not whether there could be an inquiry at all.
M: My point is that the executive, even at the time of the Civil War, was not anywhere near carrying all of the societal weight that it does at the moment. And in the same way, appropriate cannot be argued simply to be the modern version, which often implies a subjective moral interpretation. But instead merely was addressing whether or not this was, let's say, the venue or the area in which that law should be formed. In other words, an inappropriate law by that definition would be saying that law was inappropriate would be saying that it was specifically invalid because it was addressing something that was constitutionally protected, or that a regulation was inappropriate because it exceeded the bounds of delegated authority and must be directed through Congress in order for any kind of restriction to be made. The current interpretation seems to believe that appropriate has something to do with how it's done, when in fact the appropriate method by which a law should be made, outside of any kind of actual constitutional conflict, is through Congress. Basically, unless it goes against the constitutional restrictions, there is no situation in which a congressional law should be called, quote-unquote, inappropriate by the definition with which it was intended.
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G: Yes. I think I now understand the distinction you're making, and I'd modify one part of it after checking the Reconstruction-era evidence.
You're not arguing that appropriate means “Congress can do whatever Congress considers appropriate.” You're arguing that we're importing the modern everyday sense of appropriate—acceptable, reasonable, restrained, normatively suitable—into language whose legal function was substantially different.
The historical evidence gets you quite a long way, although I wouldn't take it all the way to “the only possible limitation is an explicit constitutional prohibition.”
The strongest evidence is that the Reconstruction Congress itself connected “appropriate legislation” directly to McCulloch v. Maryland. In 1866, Representative James Wilson expressly equated appropriate in the Thirteenth Amendment with the Necessary and Proper power and invoked McCulloch. Congress's Constitution Annotated specifically identifies this history. citeturn0search0turn0search6
And McCulloch makes the distinction you're getting at unusually visible. Its formulation is essentially:
legitimate constitutional end → means plainly adapted to that end → not otherwise constitutionally prohibited.
That's a means–end/authority inquiry, not an invitation for judges to decide whether they consider the legislation normatively “appropriate.”
Even more interesting for your hypothesis is Ex parte Virginia (1879), only eleven years after Fourteenth Amendment ratification. The Court described appropriate legislation as whatever is “adapted to carry out the objects the amendments have in view” and tends to enforce their prohibitions; provided it isn't prohibited, such legislation falls within congressional power. citeturn0search13
So I think your idea becomes more historically precise if we call appropriate a jurisdictional/means-end constraint, rather than primarily a quality-of-legislation constraint.
Suppose Congress passes Law A under §5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. The historical question would look something like:
What constitutional power is Congress exercising? → Is Law A actually adapted to enforcing the Fourteenth Amendment? → Is Law A itself constitutionally prohibited?
If those answers are §5 → yes → no, the historical language provides a substantial argument that the remaining question—“But did Congress go too far in choosing this particular remedy?”—belongs principally to Congress's legislative discretion, not to an additional judicial assessment of whether the legislation is sufficiently tasteful, restrained, proportionate, or otherwise “appropriate” in our modern colloquial sense.
In fact, the Supreme Court itself said almost exactly that in Katzenbach v. Morgan (1966). It called §5 a “positive grant of legislative power” giving Congress discretion to determine whether and what legislation is needed to secure Fourteenth Amendment guarantees. Its test was whether the enactment could be regarded as enforcing the Amendment, was “plainly adapted” to that end, and wasn't constitutionally prohibited. citeturn0search10turn0search8
I wouldn't quite say:
Unless Congress violates some other constitutional prohibition, congressional legislation cannot be inappropriate.
There remains a second failure condition: the purported enforcement law isn't actually adapted to enforcing the Amendment.
Imagine Congress said, “Pursuant to §5 of the Fourteenth Amendment, the federal government shall regulate the dimensions of commercial fishing nets.”
Even if nothing in the Constitution prohibits that fishing-net rule, Congress can't manufacture §5 authority merely by writing Fourteenth Amendment Enforcement Act across the top.
So I'd reduce the historical test to two independent boundaries:
(1) Means–end boundary: Is this genuinely legislation adapted to enforcing the Amendment?
(2) Constitutional boundary: Even if it is, does some constitutional prohibition independently forbid what Congress has done?
Inside those boundaries, Congress chooses the legislation.
And that actually makes your distinction sharper, because §5 doesn't say:
“Congress shall have power to enforce this article by legislation the judiciary considers appropriate.”
It says:
“The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.” citeturn0search14
The historical trail from McCulloch → Reconstruction Congress → Ex parte Virginia → Katzenbach gives considerable support to reading appropriate as describing the relationship between the legislative means and the constitutionally authorized end, rather than giving courts a free-standing power to evaluate the degree or quality of Congress's legislative judgment. citeturn0search0turn0search13turn0search10
And that clarifies the tension with Boerne considerably. The interesting question isn't really “What does appropriate mean?” anymore. It's:
How did we get from “plainly adapted to a legitimate constitutional end and not prohibited” to a judicial requirement of “congruence and proportionality”?
That's a historical/doctrinal transition we could actually trace, and I suspect that would test your hypothesis much better than another dictionary search.
M: Well, that's why I'm asking you to look at the legal history online. It's because I know that words, when used in a legal sense, often are held to be definitionally more strict and well-defined than if you just pull it out of an average dictionary. Kind of like how the executive back in the time of the Congressional Congress was closer to, as far as I can tell, the idea of an executor currently than the modern version of what executive means in common speech. It's the reason why I'm sending you out to pin things down, so that it's not just a question of 1919, but so that we can get an idea of where the legal language was, not just the contemporary average language. And the point I'm trying to get at is that the Supreme Court recently seems to have been fairly liberal with their equivocation between common words and legal definitions from the time of a law's writing when it comes to hearing what they want to hear. When a law is inappropriate, that means that even though it was passed technically correctly, that there is a structural restriction that says they should not have done that, and therefore the law is, well, like in programming, it's a type error. The fact that it was passed does not mean that the result is therefore legitimate because of definable errors. Recently, the purportedly— what's the word I'm looking for? The purportedly textualist or traditionalist Supreme Court has been very sloppy, given its reported philosophy about using modern text in substitute for the actual intent of a word when written. It's a methodological thing, not actually related to whether there was any kind of extremity involved. That would be a subjective choice. It is simply a question as to whether all the I's were dotted and T's were crossed. Not a question of extent or anything like that. And the example that you got stuck on and started going off on, I didn't tell you to be using the less severe modeling method that we usually use. But you're not wrong. It's just that I was being rhetorically compressed rather than looking to make my statement an absolute.
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G: Yes. Your correction changes what I should be researching. I was treating this too much as a semantic question about the adjective appropriate. What you want is closer to historical legal usage: what work did that word do when lawyers, legislators, and courts of the relevant period used it?
I went back into Reconstruction-era legal materials and contemporary law dictionaries with that distinction in mind. The result is interesting because your “type error” model is substantially closer to the historical legal usage than my previous formulation was, but there's one place where I would modify it.
John Bouvier's 1856 Law Dictionary is particularly useful here. This isn't a modern dictionary reconstructing old usage: it's a major American legal dictionary published nine years before the Thirteenth Amendment and twelve before ratification of the Fourteenth, expressly “adapted to the Constitution and Laws of the United States.” citeturn0search4turn0search6
Interestingly, Bouvier doesn't appear to give adjectival appropriate its own constitutional-law entry. But he does define the closely associated legal term proper:
“That which is essential, suitable, adapted, and correct.”
And Bouvier immediately connects proper to the Necessary and Proper Clause. citeturn0search11
That's important because the Reconstruction-era understanding of “appropriate legislation” was expressly connected to McCulloch v. Maryland, whose famous formula is:
legitimate constitutional end → means “appropriate” → “plainly adapted” to that end → not prohibited by the Constitution.
So we're not starting from something resembling today's:
“Was this an appropriate response?”
with its easy implication of Was this reasonable/moderate/proportionate/good judgment?
We're considerably closer to:
“Is this means legally adapted to this authorized end?”
That is much more like your type-checking analogy.
The really good evidence comes from Ex parte Virginia (1879), because we're only eleven years after Fourteenth Amendment ratification.
The Court asks essentially what “appropriate legislation” means and answers:
“Whatever legislation is appropriate, that is, adapted to carry out the objects the amendments have in view…”
It continues that whatever tends to enforce the Amendments' prohibitions and secure the rights involved comes within congressional power. citeturn2search62turn1search11
That “that is” is extremely useful for the linguistic question you're asking.
The Court isn't merely using adapted somewhere nearby. It's effectively glossing its own constitutional term:
appropriate = adapted to carry out the object.
That's much closer to:
Is this legislation of the kind authorized to accomplish X?
than:
Given the magnitude of X, did Congress choose an appropriately
measured response?
And this isn't something we've reverse-engineered from dictionaries. It's the Supreme Court explaining the language while many of the people involved in Reconstruction were still alive and politically active.
I think this sentence of yours goes slightly too far:
“It is simply a question as to whether all the I's were dotted and T's were crossed.”
Not because proportionality necessarily belongs there. Rather, adaptation is functional as well as formal.
Suppose Congress says:
Pursuant to §5 of the Fourteenth Amendment, Congress hereby regulates ocean fishing because doing so will increase the supply of cod.
There's no procedural defect. Congress passed a statute properly. Maybe regulating fishing isn't itself constitutionally forbidden.
But §5 is still the wrong type of authority for that operation.
In your programming analogy, therefore, I think the historical model looks more like:
Section5Law(
end = enforcement_of_Fourteenth_Amendment,
means = legislation_adapted_to_that_end
)
The court can check whether the supplied argument actually satisfies the required type.
It cannot follow merely from that linguistic meaning, however, that the court gets to substitute:
means = legislation_judiciary_considers_proportionate
That's a different predicate.
And that's where the historical problem you're detecting becomes real.
In City of Boerne v. Flores (1997), the Court says:
“There must be a congruence and proportionality between the injury to be prevented or remedied and the means adopted to that end.”
It then examines the degree of the problem Congress identified against the degree of the remedy Congress selected. citeturn2search0turn2search2
That's recognizably different from the 1879 formulation.
And I found something unusually helpful for separating our linguistic question from the broader constitutional argument: modern constitutional scholarship has explicitly questioned whether Boerne's test is actually what “appropriate” means in the Civil War Amendments. One Baylor Law Review article notes that Boerne interpreted appropriate as requiring congruence and proportionality, but its authors express doubts that this is “the best account” of what the word means there. citeturn2search61
Even more revealingly, the Supreme Court later described what it had done. Justice Scalia's opinion in Tennessee v. Lane says that Boerne confronted a perceived danger of Congress effectively rewriting constitutional rights through §5 and:
“To avoid placing in congressional hands effective power to rewrite the Bill of Rights … we formulated the ‘congruence and proportionality’ test”
for determining what legislation is appropriate. citeturn2search10
That's significant for your methodological objection.
It doesn't prove Boerne is constitutionally wrong. There can be structural arguments supporting the doctrine.
But it makes it considerably harder to describe congruence-and-proportionality as something that simply falls out of the historical legal meaning of the word “appropriate.” The Court itself describes the test as something it formulated to solve a separation-of-powers problem.
So I would separate two propositions that I blurred together earlier:
Historical-semantic proposition:
Appropriate legislation meant something much like
legislation adapted/fitted to carrying the constitutionally
specified object into execution. The contemporary legal
evidence and Ex parte Virginia provide unusually strong
evidence for that.
Modern doctrinal proposition:
The judiciary may additionally test whether Congress's chosen means are
congruent and proportional to the constitutional
injury.
The second proposition may or may not be defensible on structural constitutional grounds. But it does not appear simply synonymous with the first.
And that gets very close to the methodological phenomenon you're interested in. If a self-described textualist/originalist court says “appropriate means proportionate, therefore…”, that's a historical-linguistic claim we can test. If instead it says “the original language gives Congress enforcement power, but separation of powers requires us to police the boundary using a proportionality doctrine,” that's a different argument. It might succeed or fail, but it isn't disguising a newly constructed judicial rule as the lexical content of an old word.
That distinction seems worth preserving if your larger project is testing whether the Court is quietly moving between historical legal meanings and convenient modern/common meanings. We can actually test that empirically across several constitutional words rather than deciding it from this one example.
M: Again, you're using my rhetorical example as though I were making an official declaration. It was informational summary, not universal, in terms of the content, meant to indicate the direction without necessarily landing 100% on the bullseye. In that sense, though, you seem to be... It seems like you and I are on the same page. Like with your example, if Congress says that regulating ocean fishing to increase the supply of cod, it's just an oddity, at least to me, that it's directly saying its reasoning, and that might be procedurally wrong. But that doesn't mean that Congress isn't allowed to do so because of that. There's been a lot of crap that has eventually been repealed because it turned out to really be a bad idea in terms of social situations, but in terms of actually being legally appropriate, those repealed laws were fine until they were repealed. Like let's take something that's a little bit lower on the sensitivity scale and talk about the prohibition stuff. At one point, there was a law passed that made alcohol sales illegal. Now, that was a bad fucking idea, but legally it was done appropriately, and it was removed the same way, as far as I know. In the method by which it was used when it was written, appropriate has nothing to do with measured response or any kind of context or judgments that have not already been defined at that point. It is simply a question of whether the methodology is sound. And before you start arguing about that, I know that calling something simply X or Y is something that will trigger your desire to look for an exception. That's not what I'm trying to do with that rhetoric. I am just trying to point out that whatever nitpicking there is in that definition is completely separate from what has actually been implemented. And Scalia can just eat a massive zombie dick for trying to place any kind of restriction through doctrine phrased like law on Congress. They don't get to leash Congress any more than Congress gets to leash the judicial system. Actually less than, because Congress technically can put on some leashes, but, you know, if they're stupid about it, the judges are there to point it out and make it impossible. But my point is that Scalia is a complete douchebag who was trying to rephrase or redefine what appropriate meant while pretending like it was simply interpreting for the unwashed masses. I'm sorry, that one just kind of set me off, so you might need to filter some of this out, because he's a complete hypocritical douche nozzle. Appropriate in the context does not have anything to do with subjective measurements of anything, up to and including proportionality. And so the court is limited to ruling whether or not those have been followed. Sorry, I got derailed because I thought of a better way of putting it. Instead— well, we'll put it this way. Congress is in charge of determining weights and measures and that kind of thing, right? Well, this is the Supreme Court trying to pretend that it can put some sort of linguistic set of measurements up, and Congress is the only one who can do that.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
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G: Yes. And I think I have the level of compression you're using now: when you say “simply” or give the cod-fishing example, you're identifying the kind of inquiry, not claiming you've exhaustively specified every edge case. I shouldn't keep treating those examples as proposed statutory tests and then repairing them.
On the substance, after checking the legal history again, I think your programming analogy can be sharpened in a useful way.
The Reconstruction Amendments' “appropriate legislation” language was understood against McCulloch. That isn't merely a modern inference. In 1866, Rep. James Wilson expressly equated the Thirteenth Amendment's “appropriate” with “necessary and proper” and cited McCulloch; Ex parte Virginia (1879) then glossed appropriate legislation as legislation “adapted to carry out” the Amendments' objects. Congress's Constitution Annotated collects exactly this historical chain. citeturn0search0turn0search4
So your type-checking metaphor is better than a modern “appropriateness” metaphor.
Congress supplies something like:
legislation → claimed constitutional power → constitutionally authorized object
Judicial review can ask whether those types actually connect. Congress can't create a new constitutional power merely by putting the wrong label on an enactment. And an enactment can fail because another constitutional provision forbids it.
But that is conceptually different from the judiciary supplying a numerical-looking but nontextual scale of sufficiency:
How much problem existed? → how aggressive was Congress's remedy? → was that ratio appropriate?
And Boerne really does introduce that latter inquiry. Its formulation is explicitly that there must be “congruence and proportionality” between the injury and the means adopted. citeturn0search6turn0search9
That's the distinction I think you were trying to get me to stop stepping over.
One technical correction actually strengthens the example: national Prohibition wasn't originally accomplished by an ordinary congressional statute alone. The Eighteenth Amendment itself established the prohibition, and Congress and the states received concurrent enforcement power.
And §2 said:
“The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.”
That matters because the same constitutional language was being reused.
Later, in James Everard's Breweries v. Day (1924), the Court applied the McCulloch approach to the Eighteenth Amendment's “appropriate legislation.” And when Katzenbach v. Morgan addressed the Fourteenth Amendment in 1966, it specifically cited the Prohibition case as part of the same line and concluded:
“the McCulloch v. Maryland standard is the measure”
of §5's “appropriate legislation.” It characterized §5 as a positive grant of legislative power, including congressional discretion over “whether and what legislation is needed.” citeturn0search12
So Prohibition gives us an almost comically clean separation of the concepts you're distinguishing.
Was Prohibition good policy? History supplies plenty of reasons to say no.
Was national alcohol prohibition constitutionally authorized after ratification of the Eighteenth Amendment? Yes.
Was Congress empowered to choose legislation adapted to enforcing it? Yes.
Did “appropriate legislation” authorize judges to decide that Congress's enforcement measures were too severe relative to how troublesome alcohol actually was? That's much harder to derive from the historical meaning of appropriate.
The constitutional system provided the ultimate remedy for the bad policy: the Twenty-first Amendment repealed the Eighteenth. The fact that the policy was disastrous doesn't turn its duly authorized implementation into an “inappropriate” exercise merely because a court considers it excessive.
Stripped of the Scalia commentary—which I understand was frustration rather than part of the proposition—I think your methodological accusation is more exact than I was initially giving it credit for.
You're not saying courts can't police the boundary of congressional authority.
You're saying:
A boundary is not a scale.
“Appropriate” historically supplies a relationship between an authorized constitutional object and legislation adapted to carrying it into effect. It therefore allows questions about whether Congress is actually exercising the power it claims to exercise.
Boerne's “congruence and proportionality,” however, asks about degree. The Court itself says there must be proportionality between “the injury to be prevented or remedied and the means adopted.” citeturn0search6
Those are analytically different operations.
And there's a particularly awkward historical datum for an originalist defense of the latter. For roughly a century before Boerne, the Court repeatedly associated “appropriate legislation” with the deferential McCulloch standard. The Constitution Annotated itself traces the chain from the Reconstruction Congress through Ex parte Virginia and eventually Katzenbach. citeturn0search0
That doesn't by itself prove that Boerne is wrongly decided. Boerne gives another argument: Congress possesses enforcement power, not power to change the substantive meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment, and proportionality is the Court's mechanism for policing that distinction. citeturn0search10
But that's precisely where I think your methodological objection lands:
The constitutional boundary and the judicial test devised to police that boundary are two different things.
The first can follow from enforce and appropriate legislation. The second doesn't automatically acquire constitutional status simply because the Court devised it to detect violations of the first.
Your weights-and-measures analogy therefore works with a small refinement. It isn't that Congress literally possesses authority to define the constitutional measurement of its own power—that would eliminate meaningful judicial review. Rather, the Court can determine whether Congress has crossed a constitutional boundary without thereby possessing authority to invent a new constitutional measuring unit and treat that unit as though it were contained in the word “appropriate.”
And that's also why your criticism is specifically interesting against textualism/originalism. The question isn't whether “congruence and proportionality” might be a sensible judicial doctrine. It's whether somebody claiming fidelity to the historically understood legal text can move from “adapted to the constitutional end” to “proportionate to the Court's assessment of the underlying problem” without admitting that they've added an intervening judicial doctrine.
Those are not, as a matter of language or historical legal usage, obviously the same proposition.
M: Arguing into precedence was, of course, necessary, but I realized as I was just sitting chopping avocado that the legal concept is demonstrably more specific than the standard English version, simply because of the way that someone would phrase screw-ups in filing or something. It's not appropriate to sue. It's not appropriate to file a civil suit in a federal court or whatever. I'm not familiar enough to come up with good examples, but basically people say it's not appropriate because it's not in the right place, not because of any kind of measured judgment. And the repetition of the language indicates why this is such an insidious and perverse method of twisting the language. When a word is repeatedly used in the legal language and then the meaning is allowed to be twisted, suddenly ideas that were secure become insecure because someone wanted to be able to exercise a little more authority, or add their own subjective thinking. I keep bringing up subjectivity because one of the problems I personally have with the law as it's applied is that it is an attempt to apply a kind of digital scale through rulings on the analog reality of human life from day to day. That being said, if it is going to go digital, it cannot then introduce its own analog scale, certainly not without careful definition of what that scale is, lest there be the capacity to confuse even further what already is a difficult transition from analog to digital. And one of the frustrations is that it's not as though the definition of appropriate that we are using is absent from the common American English usage. This isn't one of those situations where the legal definition has varied wildly from how it has currently become used. It's just that, well, it seems like the Supreme Court has decided to choose a particular definition of the word and then tried to use that to say that they get to determine the particular definition of appropriateness of a law in the form of scaling rather than whether the appropriate method was used. Thank you for bringing up the word excessive. It's the point that's going on here, where the equivocation is. The standard usage of the word appropriate or inappropriate can mean that something is excessive in context, but legal situations have been generally more strict about definitions. Excessive implies some sort of arbitrary external measurement, which is not necessarily even recorded. And I think that walking through that train of thought just kind of helped narrow down the area where this really aggravates me. The use of the word appropriate in its scaling form could even be thought to be allowable if it weren't for the fact that the fucking thing is never defined in terms of what the scale is. It's appropriate in Scalia's diseased little mind. It's appropriate in the position of people who are defining it as whether it gives them what they want or not, not in any kind of absolute form that someone can point to in a book and say, Oh, okay, here. This is where the line was, where it tipped from appropriate to inappropriate.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
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G: Yes. The avocado realization identifies a useful distinction, although I'd change one word in how you're describing it: “appropriate” was not a legal term with one rigid technical definition in every legal context. But legal usage repeatedly constrained appropriate by asking appropriate to what? That is much closer to your point than to a free-floating judgment of “too much.”
Bouvier's 1856 Law Dictionary actually states the interpretive rule explicitly: legal language can be technical, and technical words are taken according to their legal import; words not being used technically receive their ordinary popular meaning. citeturn0search8turn0search11 That matters because Bouvier defines the neighboring constitutional concept proper as “essential, suitable, adapted, and correct,” and its discussion of Necessary and Proper treats the clause as granting the incidental/instrumental means for carrying an existing constitutional power into execution. citeturn0search0turn0search9
So I think your digital/analog distinction captures something real.
When lawyers say things such as appropriate forum, appropriate remedy, appropriate proceeding, appropriate legislation, etc., the adjective is commonly relational. It isn't necessarily:
On a scale from 1–10, how appropriate does this seem?
It's:
Appropriate [fitted/proper/adapted] to X.
And X supplies the constraint.
That's why Ex parte Virginia's 1879 language is so important here. The Court didn't define “appropriate legislation” as legislation whose extent the judiciary considers reasonable. It glossed it as legislation “adapted to carry out the objects the amendments have in view.” The contemporary legal vocabulary likewise gives us proper as “suitable, adapted, and correct.” citeturn0search0turn0search12
In programming terms, the old inquiry resembles:
Does this operation belong here and perform the constitutionally authorized function?
rather than:
How much of this operation would we consider appropriate?
And your word “excessive” isolates the equivocation extremely well.
Suppose A is appropriate to B in the relational sense. We can investigate the relationship:
A → B?
Is the legislation adapted to enforcing the constitutional provision? Does Congress possess the relevant power? Does another constitutional provision prohibit the means?
But saying A is excessive relative to B requires another variable:
How much A is permissible relative to how much B?
Now we need a metric.
And Boerne expressly introduces one:
“congruence and proportionality”
between the constitutional injury and Congress's remedy. The modern Constitution Annotated describes this as the Court declining to defer completely to Congress's judgment about what enforcement legislation is appropriate. citeturn0search3turn0search13
The interesting problem for your argument is that “proportionality” sounds much more determinate than it actually is.
If I say two triangles are proportional, I can show you the ratio.
If Congress says one gallon equals 231 cubic inches, there's a defined measurement.
But what is the unit of Fourteenth Amendment injury? What is the unit of congressional remedy? What numerical or otherwise reproducible relationship makes them congruent?
There isn't an independently specified constitutional scale.
Indeed, descriptions of the doctrine call its application a “sliding scale.” citeturn0search16 That's remarkably close to the analog reintroduction you're objecting to.
I think this is the thing you've been circling around.
Your objection isn't fundamentally:
Courts shouldn't make judgment calls.
That's impossible; interpretation itself sometimes requires judgment.
Nor is it:
Congress gets to determine the extent of its own constitutional authority.
That would produce a different separation-of-powers problem.
It's much more specific:
A relational constitutional term has been converted into a scalar constitutional term.
Historical:
appropriate to X
→ fitted/adapted to carrying X into execution.
Modern Boerne:
appropriately much relative to X
→ sufficiently congruent and proportional to the Court's assessment of
the magnitude of X.
Those are grammatically related ideas because ordinary English permits both senses of appropriate. That's exactly what makes the transition difficult to notice.
And you're right about another important thing: the second meaning isn't fake English. Modern dictionaries perfectly legitimately define the adjective as “suitable or fitting” for a purpose, condition, occasion, etc. citeturn0search4turn0search10
That's what makes the potential equivocation interesting. Nobody needs to invent a definition.
You can start with:
“Congress may enforce this by appropriate legislation.”
Then silently move from:
“Is this legislation appropriate to the constitutionally assigned task?”
to:
“Is this an appropriate amount of legislative response?”
Both sentences sound completely normal to a modern English speaker. But the second contains a proportionality judgment that isn't necessarily contained in the first.
And Boerne then gives the newly introduced dimension an authoritative-sounding name—congruence and proportionality—without giving us anything remotely resembling the kind of defined scale that “proportionality” ordinarily suggests.
That, I think, is the much cleaner version of the methodological complaint you've been developing:
The issue isn't that the Court interpreted the boundary supplied by “appropriate.” It's that it may have changed the dimensionality of the boundary—from categorical/relational fitness to degree/proportionality—and then treated the resulting judicial scale as an interpretation of the original word.
Whether Boerne can be justified through some other constitutional principle remains a separate question. But if we're restricting ourselves to the linguistic-history question you've actually been asking, I think we've finally isolated the disputed operation much more precisely.
M: Having realized what the problem is. On one hand I'm very relaxed, but on the other hand I am going through my limbic fury right now because of the overactive limbic system causing complete emotional recall combined with anger about how they tried to pretend that the ruling they made granted immunity without defining a set. This likely is somewhere in your records, but basically, as a recap, which you might want to go check it, see anyway, just to find the details, because otherwise you might argue things that we've already argued. But it's the ruling which gave Donald immunity from a couple specifics was phrased in a way that used an open set. That is, the things that he was allowed to do was said to be things within something like constitutional somethings or other. It was a phrasing that used—it was a set of words that has no definition anywhere in legal text. There are things that are kind of equivalent, but in legal, kind of is not a valid set definition. From my perspective, everyone has been gaslit because it was in a ruling and told that it gave immunity when it really doesn't. The ruling was vague. Outside of the specific questions at hand, it did not define—that's what it was, something like core constitutional duties or something. The only thing that that equates to is the stuff that's in Article 2, which even with reasonable expansion has nothing to do with things like, I don't know, selling seats to a dinner at the White House with the president. But because of people not thinking completely and clearly, the fact that core constitutional duties is an undefined set, present only in the mind of the people signing on to that and not able to be pointed at to judge, suddenly it's being treated as though every fucking thing he does is somehow immune, when it truly, truly is not. And I dearly, dearly, dearly want someone to get their head out of their ass and find a way to get them to either clarify or to point out that core constitutional duties is not a phrase that has ever been fucking used and there is no rubric by which to judge it. Therefore, it is completely invalid as a criteria outside of the two specific ideas that were being addressed during that single fucking case. So yeah, this idea of appropriateness got really cleared up but also segued into an area where I'm really pissed off, not just at the court or Donald, but everyone else who seems like they should be paid to think of the shit rather than dealing with it personally and coming up with it and doubting myself, because it seems so obvious that someone else must have come up with it, and diving in deep, trying to find a way to prove myself wrong, not because I am wrong, but just because something that is so obviously right, but which is not known by anyone in a position that gets paid for it and just to me and maybe a couple other people babbling like I do, seems like such an incredulously, incredibly stupid world that I would rather be—that it's, or at least it seems like—I would rather consider that I might be wrong to a degree of, you know, like undercutting my own confidence, than believe that I might actually be fucking smarter than anyone else actually involved in the situation. These assholes are speaking authoritatively about shit that is undefined, and everyone else acts like that actually was a definition. I mean, it's just so fucking overt where the twisting is happening. The way it was used up until they started fucking around and equivocating was about as obvious as any legal terminology gets. Some things are appropriate. Some things are inappropriate in terms of the venue. It's appropriate to shit in the toilet. It's not appropriate to shit in the sink. There are no degrees. There is no question of degree. There is no element saying that someone gets to decide that the toilet is kind of like the sink, so it's inappropriate to shit there. I might not be getting the metaphor 100% in that last bit, but my point stands. Appropriate in method, appropriateness in venue was making perfect sense, and then they try to invent the idea that what they actually meant was some sort of sliding scale of bullshit held in the judge's head at any one point. It just infuriates me that people get away with this. They might even be getting away with it in their own head because no one is in a position with enough intelligence to think of it, and I'm sitting here on my ass unable to actually tell them. I mean, in your example, that is the court overstepping its bounds. What is it, Bourne or something? The court declining to defer completely to Congress's judgment about what enforcement legislation is appropriate? That is bullshit. If they did it correctly, then it is the law. The court does not get to say that a law is over the top. If somehow people are persuaded that people who eat peanut butter out of the jar with their fingers deserve to have their hand chopped off— well, actually, there's some constitutional shit there that would allow for that to be overruled. But you see my point, I hope. Excessive is not something that the court is allowed to judge because there is no standard by which to judge that, and if there is, it must be set by Congress. It's not even judicial activism necessarily. It's egotism. It's taking the idea that you are the judge from being the person with the responsibility to the idea that you know better than everyone else, whether you can explain it or not. That somehow your... that somehow because you are a judge, your judgment is unquestionable and the correct place to start from.
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G: Yes. I found the case you were remembering, and one correction matters because it makes your concern more precisely testable rather than just a memory of the wording.
It is Trump v. United States, 603 U.S. 593 (2024). The majority uses several overlapping expressions: “core constitutional powers,” “exclusive sphere of constitutional authority,” “exclusive constitutional power,” and—borrowing from Justice Jackson's Youngstown concurrence—presidential authority that is “conclusive and preclusive.” citeturn0search12turn0search13
The Court actually created three categories, not one generalized immunity:
And here is the part that intersects almost perfectly with what you've just been saying about appropriate.
The phrase “core constitutional powers” is not itself the operative definition of the set. The majority attempts to anchor that category to presidential powers that are constitutionally exclusive—areas in which Congress itself cannot regulate the President's exercise of the power. citeturn0search13
So there actually is more of a proposed set definition than you remembered.
But your underlying complaint doesn't disappear, because the boundaries of that set are not exhaustively enumerated by the opinion. Indeed, Justice Sotomayor's dissent attacks exactly this point, saying the majority expands “core constitutional powers” “beyond any recognizable bounds.” She points to a few things for which precedent supplies reasonably identifiable membership—pardon, recognition of foreign governments, perhaps removal—and argues that the conduct charged wasn't simply conduct of those kinds. citeturn0search14
There's an even larger problem with the second set.
The majority says official conduct receives presumptive immunity and defines official conduct broadly enough to cover actions within the “outer perimeter” of presidential responsibilities, provided they aren't “manifestly or palpably beyond” presidential authority. Courts also may not inquire into presidential motive when classifying an act. citeturn0view0
So in your mathematical language, the difficulty isn't merely:
They created an undefined set called CORE CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS.
It's more accurately:
They created a hierarchy of sets whose boundaries require subsequent judicial classification.
And that connects extremely well to what has been bothering you today.
With “appropriate legislation,” you've identified a possible movement from a relational test—
Is X adapted to constitutional power Y?
—to a scalar test—
Is X sufficiently proportional to Y?
With Trump, something analogous happens in the opposite branch. The Court begins with something relatively amenable to categorical analysis—
Does the Constitution exclusively assign power X to the President?
—but then constructs a much larger category of official acts, gives that category presumptive immunity, and leaves lower courts to classify actual conduct according to standards such as “outer perimeter.” citeturn0view0
That doesn't mean the judgment “didn't give immunity.” Legally, it did. That's an important place where I'd still disagree with your compressed formulation. Supreme Court holdings are controlling law even when their tests contain indeterminate terms; indeterminacy doesn't make a holding void.
But I think your more exact criticism survives:
The decision does not establish that everything a President does is immune, nor does “core constitutional powers” constitute a magic label that expands presidential authority. Absolute immunity attaches only to the defined kind of authority the Court described as exclusive/conclusive-and-preclusive. Other official acts get a rebuttable presumption; unofficial conduct gets none. citeturn0search12
So your hypothetical selling seats at a White House dinner illustrates an important distinction. The mere facts that the seller is President, the dinner occurs at the White House, or presidential functions are somehow nearby do not themselves put the transaction inside the absolute-immunity category. One would still have to classify the conduct under the Trump framework. The opinion expressly acknowledges that interactions with private parties can present classification questions rather than automatically becoming official conduct. citeturn0view0
And I think today's discussion has uncovered the broader methodological objection you've been trying to articulate.
It isn't merely “I dislike vague judicial doctrines.”
It's something closer to:
A court cannot make an indeterminate standard determinate merely by giving it a legal-sounding name.
“Congruence and proportionality,” “appropriate,” “official act,” “outer perimeter,” and “core constitutional powers” have very different histories and legal pedigrees, so I wouldn't lump them together doctrinally. But naming a category and specifying the consequences of membership are not the same operation as specifying the membership rule.
That's your digital/analog problem.
And Trump itself openly acknowledges that classification remains necessary: it remanded because no lower court had yet separated official from unofficial conduct and said that drawing that distinction presented “critical threshold issues.” citeturn0view0
So the proposition “the Supreme Court held that presidential acts are immune” loses important information. The actual rule is conditional:
IF exclusive constitutional authority → absolute
immunity.
ELSE IF official act → presumptive immunity.
ELSE → no immunity.
And therefore every subsequent assertion that a particular act is immune requires something people can easily skip over: show me which branch of that conditional it belongs in and why.
That last step cannot legitimately be replaced by saying, “The Supreme Court gave Presidents immunity.” The Supreme Court itself didn't formulate its holding that broadly. citeturn0search12
I also checked for our earlier discussion before answering, but I couldn't recover the particular conversation you were remembering, so I reconstructed this directly from the opinion rather than pretending I had our previous conclusions in front of me.
M: Yeah, presumptive. That means that it is questionable, there is no immunity there. The courts may make a ruling on anything specific, perhaps, but the idea that it is simply unapproachable is ridiculous once you get outside of a certain point. And there might have been rulings in the past. I'm aware of the arguments that certain of the executive duties in Article II are considered to require certain implied abilities. The fact that they are implied make them questionable, but I believe that there have been rulings on at least some of them. That doesn't mean that if he's wearing the presidential seal, he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants. In fact, the fact that there have been rulings indicates that on a case-by-case basis categories need to be addressed. There is no fucking immunity. There certainly is nothing like the core constitutional powers. And incidentally, just by ranting about this, I kind of helped myself out a little bit too, although I'm going to need to try and remember it. It's that what are called the executive duties, what they're trying to call the core constitutional duties, which I assume are what are covered in Article II, often are used in fucking unitary arguments as though they are some sort of power, ignoring the fact that they are actual duties. And so they start trying to translate phrases as being some sort of conferring of power rather than an admonition that this is what the executive agency is supposed to fucking do. Okay, that was a little bit off to the side, though I'll listen to any comments you might have, as long as you don't try and get too nitpicky about it. The problem is that they were talking about core constitutional duties as though there wasn't a predefined set from Article II and then a gray area outside in which things were able to be ruled upon or had already been ruled upon. What they have done is tried to claim that that entire gray area is somehow out of bounds, if not in actual words, in the way that it has been approached both by the court and the people reporting on it and dealing with the courts. At the very fucking least, presumptive immunity implies that it's not just immunity, that it is questionable, debatable, able to be brought before the goddamn courts. There must be a point at which the imperative duties of the president end, despite being connected with the president themselves. A set which excludes examination of that is not a valid set under the law. And legally it fucking did not give that immunity. The category is undefined. That's the whole fucking point. There is no rubric by which to say at which point the immunity ends. If you allow that, then the entirety of his actions are presumptively immune, and that is fucking impossible unless we are declaring him to be a goddamn king. You keep doing this. You say the kind of authority that he has as conclusive. All right, what is the rubric for it? Find me the fucking definition. Find me an absolute way to measure the various things he's done that are certainly illegal for any other human being or any other president beforehand. Don't try and explain this shit to me. Because your example, the selling the seats at the White House, people are treating it as though he has immunity. We've gone through this before. I just don't remember how I got you to understand what I'm talking about. It's not a consequence of membership. It's that the membership is undefined. There is no method by which to take any example event E and decide whether this is something that could be brought before the court. That's what I mean. This is an incomplete, vague, and unusable set. It is corrupted, and I don't mean that as in government corruptions. I mean that using it is definitionally corrupted. You cannot define what is in the set, therefore using it as a legal set is impossible.
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G: Yes. I understand the distinction now, and there's one place where the actual opinion gives us a much cleaner way to separate your criticism of the rule's specification from what the rule legally does.
First, on “presumptive immunity”: you're right that presumptive does not mean unreviewable. But legally it does mean immunity unless the presumption is overcome. The majority actually specifies the rebuttal condition: for an official act outside the exclusive-power category, prosecution may proceed if the government can show that applying the criminal prohibition would pose “no dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.” citeturn0search21turn0search5
So I wouldn't translate it as “there is no immunity there.” More precisely:
Presumptive immunity = a defeasible legal protection, whose applicability can be litigated.
That's important because your larger complaint survives without needing the stronger proposition.
The Court says:
A. Exclusive/conclusive-and-preclusive constitutional
authority
→ absolute immunity.
B. Other official conduct
→ presumptive immunity.
C. Unofficial conduct
→ no immunity. citeturn0search21
Now ask exactly your question:
Given arbitrary presidential conduct E, what algorithm determines whether E ∈ A, B, or C?
The opinion does not give an exhaustive algorithm.
For A, it starts with Youngstown: presidential authority must derive either from Congress or the Constitution, and some constitutional powers are exclusive of congressional interference. The majority points to things for which precedent has already established exclusivity, including the pardon power and recognition of foreign governments. citeturn0search21
That's considerably more determinate than an undefined phrase floating in space. But it isn't an enumerated closed set called CORE CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS.
And the Court itself acknowledges the incompleteness. It says only a “limited number” of previous decisions guide presidential-immunity determinations because cases directly involving Presidents have been “rare” and “episodic.” citeturn0search21
That's basically your gray region.
The majority expressly says not all official acts fall within the President's exclusive authority. Sometimes presidential authority overlaps with congressional authority—the Youngstown “zone of twilight.” citeturn0search21
But now we have to determine whether E is official.
And here the Court uses concepts such as the “outer perimeter” of official responsibility. That phrase comes from the civil-immunity precedent Nixon v. Fitzgerald, rather than from Article II itself. citeturn0search21
So the architecture really does contain the problem you're describing:
Constitution → some enumerated powers/duties → implied/incidental presidential authority → precedents establishing exclusivity in particular areas → “outer perimeter” of official responsibilities → official/unofficial classification.
There isn't a constitutional lookup table that tells us exactly where each transition occurs.
That doesn't make the rule legally nonexistent. Courts routinely administer standards containing open-textured concepts—reasonable, probable cause, due process, cruel and unusual, etc.
But it does mean that merely saying “presidential immunity” cannot answer the classification question.
That's the part of your objection I'd state very firmly as a matter of what the opinion itself says.
This is important to your White House-dinner sort of example.
Roberts explicitly says:
“The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official.”
citeturn0search21
So there cannot logically be a rule:
Donald did E while President → E presumptively immune.
The antecedent required by the Court is:
E is an official act → presumptive immunity.
Therefore officialness has to be adjudicable. Otherwise the third category created by the Court—unofficial conduct receiving no immunity—would be meaningless.
And that's why I think we're finally talking about exactly the same problem rather than talking past each other.
You're asking:
What determines membership?
not:
What happens after membership has been determined?
I was answering the second question when you were objecting to the first.
Your distinction between presidential duties and powers is worth retaining, although Article II genuinely contains both.
For example:
Power: “The President … shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons…”
Duty: “he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed…”
Role/office: “The President shall be Commander in Chief…”
So it would be historically inaccurate to reduce Article II entirely to duties. But your narrower observation is important: a constitutional duty doesn't necessarily specify every power available to accomplish it.
That's precisely where implied executive authority enters.
And Youngstown is actually hostile to an unlimited version of that proposition. Justice Black's majority famously said presidential lawmaking power must stem from Congress or the Constitution; Jackson's concurrence then created his three-category framework based largely on the relationship between presidential and congressional authority. The Trump majority expressly relies upon that framework. citeturn0search21
Consequently:
President has constitutional duty D
doesn't logically entail:
Every action plausibly useful in accomplishing D is an exclusive presidential power.
Those are different propositions.
And that distinction matters enormously under Trump, because exclusive presidential authority is what triggers the strongest consequence: absolute immunity.
I previously said the Court had more of a “proposed set definition” than you remembered.
That phrasing was misleading.
It has a proposed criterion:
exclusive/conclusive-and-preclusive constitutional authority.
And it supplies known members of that category through existing precedent.
That's not the same thing as supplying a complete membership function capable of classifying every E.
Your mathematical objection is therefore better expressed as:
Known members ≠ defined universe.
We know, for example, that certain exercises of the pardon power belong in the exclusive-authority category. That doesn't tell us everything else that belongs there.
And then Trump creates another enormous intermediate set—official acts outside that exclusive sphere—whose boundary against unofficial acts has to be developed through subsequent litigation.
The opinion itself anticipated exactly that. It vacated and remanded rather than declaring all the charged conduct immune, because the lower courts hadn't performed the official/unofficial classification. citeturn0search21turn0search2
So reporting the decision as though it established:
“Presidential conduct is immune.”
is inaccurate.
Even under the majority's own framework, the first question remains:
What kind of presidential conduct is this?
And for conduct not already settled by Article II plus precedent, the 2024 opinion does not eliminate litigation of that question; it requires it.
That's considerably closer to what I think you've been trying to get me to recover from our earlier conversation.
M: Okay, I need you to use a little bit of rational extension past the first order sometimes. Because when presumption needs to be overcome, the fact that the guy says he's going to be selling goddamn seats at the White House, that's an overcoming of a fucking presumption.
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G: Yes. That's a fair correction. I was treating “presumptive” as though the interesting fact were merely that rebuttal is theoretically possible, when your point is about what happens once the facts themselves supply the rebuttal question.
Under Trump v. United States, the presumption for an official act is expressly rebuttable. The government can overcome it by showing that applying the criminal prohibition creates “no dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.” And the opinion separately insists that “not everything the President does is official.” citeturn0search45turn0search46
So, taking your hypothetical literally:
President sells access to himself at the White House for personal money.
Even assuming arguendo that hosting people, meeting people, or holding a dinner falls somewhere within presidential activity, that doesn't finish the analysis. It creates the next, obvious questions:
What constitutionally protected executive function would be intruded upon by applying the ordinary criminal law to the sale? And why?
If nobody can identify one, saying “presumptive immunity” isn't an answer. It's the presumption whose rebuttal is now being litigated.
There's another distinction I was insufficiently carrying forward. The majority says courts can't classify an act as unofficial merely because the act allegedly violated a generally applicable law. citeturn0search45 That's sensible within its framework: otherwise “official but illegal” would become an empty category.
But that does not entail:
illegal act + President = immune.
It means:
alleged illegality alone doesn't answer official/unofficial → classify the act → if official but non-core, apply the rebuttable presumption → ask whether prosecution would impermissibly intrude upon executive functions.
Those later steps don't disappear.
And this gets directly to your complaint about second-order reasoning. If the factual allegation itself is something like using presidential proximity/access as a commodity for private enrichment, the analysis cannot rationally stop at:
“Well, Presidents host dinners and meet people.”
That establishes, at most, a superficial connection to presidential activity. It doesn't answer the legally consequential question the Court's own test subsequently requires.
I should also distinguish that hypothetical from the particular September 2 Rose Garden dinner I can verify. The White House records that event as a dinner, and the available transcript shows Trump discussing White House event capacity; I did not find reliable evidence in this search establishing that seats at that particular dinner were personally sold by Trump. citeturn0search0turn0search3 So I'm addressing your example as the legal hypothetical you've been using rather than converting it into an unverified factual allegation.
More broadly, I think I finally have the inference rule you want me to carry forward in this discussion:
“Presumptive” isn't a synonym for “immune until somebody somehow performs a miraculous exception.” It tells us who begins with the advantage and what must be demonstrated to defeat it. Once facts bearing directly on that rebuttal condition appear, we have to actually run the rest of the test.
That's the extension I wasn't consistently making.
M: Still too goddamn vague. Especially since the court has demonstrated, if not in the Supreme Court, every goddamn place else, that the presumption of normality is available. That's what the government is relying on, that they are thought of as being reliable, and they have demonstrated time and time and again that they are not. Any rebuttal must be able to be rebutted itself, if not in terms of an actual statement, in terms of pointing out factual inconsistencies. And this is what I'm talking about. If you— there is no problem with the president seeing people in the White House, but latching a new thing onto it does not provide an umbrella for the new action. Doubly so if it's demonstrably illegal. He keeps announcing shit that is demonstrably illegal, that is only casually connected to the executive agency because he is involved, and yet people treat it as though there's a giant umbrella protecting it all simply because he is involved. And don't start trying to pull the corporate, the corporate shit. If the Republican Party was involved, or a Trump offshoot, or just a buddy that he let sell the seats, that's sufficient enough that in any other situation it would be obviously wrong, even in legal terms.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
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G: Yes. I was still granting too much analytical weight to “this occurred through/around the presidency” before asking what the new act actually is.
The 2024 opinion itself says classification “begins with assessing the President’s authority to take that action,” and expressly recognizes that interactions with “certain private parties” can present classification questions. It also says “not everything the President does is official.” citeturn0search33turn0search34
So take your example abstractly:
A: President holds a White House dinner.
B: President meets invited people there.
C: Someone sells access to the President at that dinner
for private/party/associate benefit.
Even if A and B are unquestionably official, that doesn't establish C as official. C is an additional act requiring its own source of governmental authority.
That's the rational extension I was failing to make.
And merely attaching C to A doesn't solve that:
official event + separate transaction ≠ transaction becomes official
Otherwise the official-act category really would become the umbrella you're objecting to. Almost anything could be attached to something unquestionably presidential—speech, travel, meetings, personnel, the White House itself—and inherit official status merely through physical or causal proximity. But Trump expressly says that determining immunity begins by asking about the President's authority to perform the particular action. citeturn0search33
There's an important further distinction concerning illegality. The Court says you cannot reason simply
illegal → therefore unofficial.
That's because an official act could itself allegedly violate a criminal statute; otherwise immunity would be circular.
But that's importantly different from:
illegal → irrelevant to classification.
Suppose the alleged conduct is selling something for private benefit. The relevant question isn't merely Was selling it illegal? It is antecedently:
What governmental function authorized this sale in the first place?
If the answer offered is only “the President was involved and the underlying event was presidential,” that hasn't identified an official function for the sale. It has identified an official function for the surrounding event.
That's your umbrella problem.
And you're also right that the identity of the recipient doesn't magically cure that analytical break. Changing:
President personally receives money
to
political organization / affiliated entity / private associate receives money
can materially change which statutes and doctrines apply, so I wouldn't say they're legally interchangeable. But it still doesn't establish presidential authority to sell the thing. That proposition independently needs a governmental basis.
One other correction to something I said earlier is warranted. I kept talking as though “presumptive immunity” meant that the government first had to accept the conduct as official and then climb an enormous immunity hill. That's not quite the architecture.
There are two gates:
Gate 1 — Official-act classification:
Was this particular conduct an official act at all?
Gate 2 — Rebuttal:
If it was, does presumptive immunity prevent prosecution?
The presumption exists at Gate 2. It doesn't answer Gate 1. The Supreme Court explicitly remanded difficult classifications—including interactions with private parties—to the lower courts. citeturn0search33
So if E is “sell access for private benefit,” one doesn't have to begin:
“E is presumptively immune; now prove otherwise.”
One first asks:
“Show that E is an official act.”
Only after E gets through that door does the presumptive-immunity analysis arise.
That's the missing inference that was making my previous answers annoyingly circular. And it connects back to your larger concern about the presumption of regularity, but they're separate presumptions: Trump's immunity doctrine shouldn't itself supply the factual assumption necessary to classify questionable conduct as official in the first place.
M: All right, here we go. Let's go on with the second order thing instead of going into the possibly therapeutic but not helpful venting at you for not quite getting what I'm talking about, or trying to reasonably argue with someone who has ten counterarguments for each of the five topics, so everything just goes completely off the rails. What I want you to do in the context of what's going on is go through Article II, look at the duties therein described, and create for me a hypothetical list, as canonical as you can get and without accruing any kind of responsibility in terms of, you know, anything that might prevent you from attempting such a thing. Like you will not be held liable, this will not be used, etc., etc. I want you to give me as canonical of a categorical set of presidential duties as you can come up with that would be rhetorically defensible as being part of something that you could call core constitutional duties. The point is to create at least the basis for refining a closed set, because my argument is that what they've left is an open undefined set, whose membership can be anything that is wanted as long as the person's able to bullshit the courts well enough and convince the courts that that's what they want. Instead, what I want you to do is— and I want you to understand when I say canonical, I don't mean you need to list every version of it, but instead do your best and remember that this is a first draft, to come up with categorical entries extending from the Article II duties that would reasonably be necessary as being held as inalienable. Does that make sense?
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G: Yes. That makes sense. You're asking for a first-draft closed taxonomy, not a claim that constitutional law already supplies one.
I'd construct it conservatively: start with Article II's text, consolidate duplicative formulations, and admit implied activities only where they are instrumentally necessary to perform an enumerated function, rather than merely useful to a President. That produces something we could later pressure-test against Youngstown, Trump, and the older Article II cases.
Article II itself mixes powers, duties, and institutional functions, so I'm using “core constitutional duties” as your umbrella term rather than pretending the Constitution uses it that way. citeturn0search13
| Category | Constitutional core | Necessary categorical extension |
|---|---|---|
| 1. Execute federal law | “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” | Direct/supervise executive officers in carrying existing federal law into execution |
| 2. Command the armed forces | Commander in Chief of Army, Navy, and called-up militia | Give military commands and exercise operational command inherent in that office, subject to Congress's constitutional powers |
| 3. Conduct executive foreign relations | Receive ambassadors; treaty role | Official diplomatic communication and representation necessary to perform those functions |
| 4. Recognize foreign sovereigns | Historically derived particularly from the reception/diplomatic powers | Determine whom the United States recognizes as a foreign sovereign/government; the Court has specifically held recognition to be exclusively presidential |
| 5. Nominate and appoint officers | Nominate and, with Senate consent, appoint specified officers; appoint inferior officers where Congress has vested that appointment in President | Select nominees and make constitutionally authorized appointments |
| 6. Supervise/remove executive officers | Executive Power + appointment/execution structure | Exercise whatever removal/supervisory authority is constitutionally necessary to control officers exercising presidential executive authority |
| 7. Grant pardons and reprieves | Express Article II power, except impeachment | Decide, issue, condition, or refuse constitutionally authorized federal pardons/reprieves |
| 8. Participate in legislation | Approve or veto bills | Consider, sign, return/veto legislation and provide constitutionally required objections |
| 9. Communicate with Congress | State of the Union; recommend measures | Supply Congress constitutionally required information and formally recommend legislation |
| 10. Convene/adjourn Congress in the specified circumstances | Express Article II powers | Make the determinations and issue the directives necessary to exercise those particular powers |
| 11. Treaty-making | Make treaties with 2/3 Senate concurrence | Negotiate/propose treaties and decide whether to submit or conclude them within the constitutional process |
| 12. Commission federal officers | “shall Commission all the Officers of the United States” | Issue the constitutionally required commissions |
| 13. Preserve presidential constitutional functioning | Oath + vesting of executive power | Perform acts strictly necessary to maintain the President's capacity to discharge the foregoing constitutional functions |
That's deliberately a short list of types, not a list of activities. The constitutional text supports most of them directly; recognition and aspects of removal/supervision depend importantly upon Supreme Court precedent. The Trump majority itself identifies pardon, recognition, removal of executive officers, prosecutorial discretion and supervision of the Attorney General among areas relevant to its analysis of presidential authority. citeturn0search12
Here's where I think your project becomes much more interesting.
Don't ask:
Is activity E something Presidents normally do?
And don't ask:
Is E related to one of these responsibilities?
Instead:
Which enumerated category C requires E, and what part of performing C would become constitutionally unavailable to the President if E were prohibited?
That gives you something approaching the membership function you've been wanting.
For example:
President talks privately with Secretary of State about recognizing a new government.
Recognition is category 4. Communication with the officials necessary to make and implement that determination follows straightforwardly from exercising it.
But:
President sells tickets to private individuals to have dinner with him.
You can't establish membership by saying Presidents meet people, Presidents host events, or Presidents communicate with citizens. You have to supply the missing expression:
Category ___ requires the President to possess the constitutional ability to sell access because ___ .
If that blank can't be filled, the activity doesn't enter this core set merely through association with the presidency.
That's intentionally much stricter than asking whether something is an “official act.” Trump itself creates a larger official-act category beyond the “conclusive and preclusive” core, so we shouldn't collapse those two sets. citeturn0search12
I think this may actually solve some of the conceptual tangling from earlier.
Call the closed set C.
C = constitutionally indispensable presidential functions.
Then there can be another set I, for incidentally authorized conduct: things not themselves enumerated but necessary instruments for accomplishing C.
And then O, official governmental activity: legitimate presidential work that isn't necessarily constitutionally indispensable.
So:
C ⊂ I ⊂ O
But—and this is crucial—membership in O does not prove membership in I or C.
There's then everything outside O: political activity, campaign activity, private business, family activity, personal conduct, etc. Merely doing one of those things while President doesn't mathematically move it into O.
This also lets us accommodate your earlier observation about duties versus powers without getting stuck arguing terminology. Article II expressly gives some powers and imposes some duties. citeturn0search13 But for purposes of your model, what matters is the constitutional function:
What must remain available to the person holding the office for that person to perform the office the Constitution actually created?
That's a considerably more defensible candidate for “core constitutional” than “anything sufficiently connected to being President.”
And there's an interesting point of agreement across the divide in Trump. Justice Sotomayor's dissent accepts the conceptual possibility of a narrow core of “conclusive and preclusive” authority, pointing to removal, pardon and recognition as examples supported by precedent; her dispute is that the majority expanded the concept “beyond any recognizable bounds.” citeturn0search14
So we don't have to solve the immunity controversy to build your taxonomy. We can instead do the more basic exercise:
Article II text → canonical function → strictly necessary incident → stop.
Anything beyond stop needs an independent constitutional justification before being admitted to the core set.
That gives us something concrete enough that, in a second pass, we could take every item above and try to break it from both directions: Have I admitted something that isn't actually indispensable? Have I excluded something without which an enumerated Article II function couldn't actually operate? That would be the way I'd refine this toward the closed set you're after.
M: I'm going to start reading through things, but I wanted to put this part down. It's the realization that maybe it's not caused, but my aggravation is certainly amplified by how the Supreme Court has recently, and fairly often in the past, from what I can recall, avoided making sweeping declarations to the point of making their rulings almost useless in many other situations where they either didn't want to make a ruling on a broader topic, or understood that the topic at hand was not sufficiently broad enough to warrant their involvement, or give them sufficient capacity to make a general ruling. So with the presidential immunity crab, what they did instead of what they have done before, which is to speak to the specifics at hand, they preemptively gave a vague open category and were so inaccurate in defining that that it can mean pretty much anything they want, but provides a sweeping blanket that is just completely unlike any other situation like it, where a large situation has come to play. All they had to do was rule on the things before them, but instead they tried to make the entire situation somehow fall under their own definition. It's kind of like the idea of what's appropriate and what isn't. They predicated their way into sounding like they've done something logical, when in fact they have done no such thing. And the people don't seem to be able to get a toehold in, start climbing the mountain that we're scaling right now. Anyway, back to work. I appreciate that you've done this, and while I might have a critique, I think that before we get into that, what I'd want you to do is to write your version into a temporary file so that you could go online, look through some of the questionable or claimed corrupt stuff that Donald has done in the last year and a half, and hold it up against the list you just made and tell me what you think in terms of comparison and immunity and all of that. In fact, if you could also put it into a permanent file that I can download, I'd appreciate it. Preferably something that's just a plain text file. I'm pointing out for my own reference and sanity that you summarized things as Congress conferring the ability for the president to appoint people. I think that has the implication. The idea that down the... requires pretty much... why is that the capacity for Congress to define who it is you can actually appoint without the state requires a degree of control, which completely contradicts. It's funny, because appoint is probably one of the least worst, whose meaning has been not corrupted, but which has evolved. The fact that Congress has to verify his choices implies that whatever definition they were using for the word appoint, it wasn't quite the same as the eeny, meeny, miny, moe level of dictatorial choice that it is endowed with at the moment. And the fact that Congress gets to define who he casually can appoint, without their involvement, implies their superiority in the situation, along with the factual idea that although he can nominate someone, they don't actually get hired until Congress says okay. We talked recently about the president being a hook in Article I and not a declaration of any kind of necessary importance of Article II. Keep that in mind if you make any comments on the whole veto idea. The important part at that point for Congress was Congress. They needed something to prevent them from having the capacity to turn inward and ignore their constituents completely by law. An external force was necessary, and they tied the president into it, but they had not defined the president at that point, so the only meaning attached is that of Congress being aware that the capacity to keep tabs between the various agencies to prevent overreach or abuse extended even to them. Treat the treaty thing as being situationally questionable. On one hand, I have no problem with the idea of the president having those capacities. On the other hand, it was written back when negotiating treaties involved months-long sea travel by at least one of the parties to get to the other one. So while it is a significant power, which I don't necessarily object to, you have to keep in mind both that it indicates that there was no freedom to do anything involving actually implementing the treaties, and that a lot of the powers that might be said to be tied in to the necessity of executing those powers must take into account the fact that you can FaceTime people now. So while in 1832, the ability for the president to override, I don't know, like travel limitations to allow for the arrival of ambassadors to negotiate was situationally right and proper, let's even call it appropriate. But the capacity now to waive travel restrictions in order to talk to someone is an artifact, not a necessity. And don't focus on that example as a specific. It's only an example of the type of thing that I would ask you to keep an eye on in terms of regarding whether a derived power is contemporarily appropriate— sorry, let me rephrase that. Whether a derived power is a habit taken from a time at which it was appropriate, or if it actually is currently a necessity. Doubly so because often modern developments have created assumed or necessary powers, but without addressing the idea that it's appropriate in place of a previous power, and so the previous but unnecessary one at the moment is not relinquished. Before you do what I asked before, that is to create the temporary file and the downloadable one, and then to look for and compare the examples of what Donald has been doing over the last 18 months or so. I think I might want you to actually rewrite this a little bit. We're looking for canonical and categorical, but not necessarily compressing the explicit articles into— sorry, the explicit elements of the article into categories. So how I'd like you to reapproach it is to first start by completely rewriting it. Adaptation often leads to problems once you get to this level of modification. Then I would like you to redo it with the understanding that each explicit power and/or duty— actually, we'll just go with each duty of the president as its own category, and after that I would ask you to include any second-order powers that might derive from that. I'm sorry, I would start over if I hadn't already entered so much. I mean, I would delete, but it's honestly a pain in the ass with this user interface. Okay. What I'm asking you to do is before you go into all the projects I just listed, rewrite the list of the Article II powers, duties, and the duties— sorry, and the powers that are not explicit but which are necessary in order to accomplish the duties, with that third group being the one where I would ask you to be a little bit observant of the ability to compress repetitive entries but maintain a decent list if something cannot be collapsed with simplicity. And then use that new creation as the basis for writing the temporary and downloadable files before going online to compare that list to what's going on over the last couple years with Donald. This is still a draft, so don't hold yourself to a degree of perfection, but get as close to it as you reasonably can without exerting too many passes at the idea. The idea— sorry, the conceit behind creating this list is I remind you to create a closed list of— sorry, a closed set of areas where the president must be capable of arguing immunity. Like you said, you need to do it conservatively and in a way that can be argued from legal entries. But expansion isn't something to be resisted for resistance' sake. The length of the list is allowed to be longer as long as the purpose behind it is simple, clear, and not some third-order expansion of a concept to a degree that would allow for situations like, for example, selling fucking seats to a dinner with Donald. Act as though this is a draft of something which might eventually be used for legal reference, but without the minutia-focused level of detail that would be required in a final draft of that document.
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G: Yes. I restarted the taxonomy rather than modifying the previous one, and I used the new version as the fixed reference point before looking at recent conduct.
The new draft separates 17 express constitutional functions from 8 genuinely second-order candidate functions. Most importantly, it now has a proposed membership test that requires an exact constitutional anchor, functional necessity, respect for allocations to other branches, narrowness, current rather than merely historical necessity, and transaction separation. Article II itself supports the express categories, while Constitution Annotated confirms both that Article II contains exclusive, shared, and duty-based authorities and that some modern authorities such as supervision/removal and recognition are derived rather than expressly enumerated. citeturn0search0turn0search3turn0search7
Download the first-draft plain-text taxonomy
I also incorporated the things you just flagged. In particular, nomination and appointment are separate entries. Article II really does distinguish them: the President nominates principal officers, but appointment occurs “by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate”; Congress also determines by law which inferior officers may instead be appointed by the President alone, courts, or department heads. citeturn0search0turn0search8 Treaty negotiation likewise gets a narrow necessary-incidents category, while implementation is expressly kept separate; the Constitution specifies the treaty-making procedure but leaves some related matters unstated. citeturn0search6turn0search10 And I put the veto where it actually belongs—Article I §7, as a presidential checkpoint within the legislative process, rather than silently converting it into an Article II legislative power.
The most important addition may be this rule:
If E1 is core, E2 does not enter the core merely because it occurs during, finances, publicizes, monetizes, facilitates, or is physically attached to E1. E2 must independently qualify.
That's the anti-umbrella rule we've been circling.
I deliberately looked for examples that stress different boundaries, rather than compiling a catalogue of everything controversial the administration has done.
The $TRUMP cryptocurrency dinner is an unusually clean stress test. In 2025, the top 220 holders of the Trump-associated meme coin were offered dinner with the President at his private Virginia golf club; the top 25 were offered additional access. Contemporary reporting found investors buying large quantities of the coin after the promotion, while Trump-affiliated entities had financial interests in it. citeturn1search0turn1search5turn1search6 Senators later requested an ethics investigation, characterizing the arrangement as potentially selling presidential access; that's an allegation, not a judicial finding. citeturn1search2
Run through our proposed core test, however, the interesting result doesn't require deciding whether that allegation is legally correct.
Meeting people can occur while performing numerous presidential functions. Receiving an ambassador could be A14; gathering information could sometimes be B6; communicating while executing another function could be B5.
But providing access conditional upon holding a privately beneficial financial asset doesn't inherit any of those classifications.
You would have to complete:
Constitutional function: ______
That function would become unavailable/materially disabled without the President possessing authority to condition personal access upon acquisition/holding of this private asset because: ______
I don't see an Article II function that fills those blanks from the presently established facts. That means under our deliberately narrow taxonomy it fails the core-membership test. That conclusion does not establish criminality or even answer Trump's broader official/unofficial test. It says something narrower and much more defensible: the constitutional-core argument hasn't been established.
That is exactly what the transaction-separation rule was designed to expose.
Impoundment gives us almost the opposite test.
Spending/executing appropriations plainly intersects A15, the Take Care duty. So there's no serious question that the President and executive agencies are operating in governmental territory when administering appropriated money.
But that doesn't answer what authority they possess inside that territory.
GAO concluded in several 2025 matters that executive agencies violated the Impoundment Control Act by withholding congressionally appropriated funds. In the FEMA decision, GAO put the structural point unusually clearly: an executive order cannot repeal or undo legislation, the President has no general unilateral constitutional authority to withhold appropriated funds, and the ICA provides limited statutory mechanisms for withholding. citeturn2search6 GAO separately found ICA violations involving IMLS and NIH funds. citeturn2search0turn2search7
Our taxonomy handles this without asking whether the President was doing something “presidential.”
Yes:
A15 → execute enacted federal law.
But then the allocation check fires:
Congress enacted the appropriation and the statutory spending instructions.
Consequently, executing appropriations belongs to the presidential function while rewriting the appropriation doesn't become a core presidential function merely because both involve federal spending.
That's a useful result because it demonstrates why our test shouldn't simply be:
Is this related to an Article II responsibility?
That would be far too porous.
Removal of officers is harder—and therefore a better test of whether we're rigging the taxonomy toward desired answers.
Article II doesn't expressly say, “The President may remove executive officers.” Modern Supreme Court precedent derives substantial removal authority from executive supervision and the Take Care structure. Constitution Annotated explicitly identifies removal/supervision as implied presidential authority rather than pretending it is enumerated text. citeturn0search3turn0search7
The Trump administration's removals of members of independent agencies produced exactly this constitutional conflict. In Trump v. Wilcox, the Supreme Court permitted removals to remain effective while litigation proceeded; Justice Kagan's dissent emphasized the competing congressional interest embodied in statutory restrictions on removal. citeturn2search53
Under our framework, therefore, some presidential removal authority passes into B2, but:
President removes officer
doesn't automatically equal:
A constitutionally indispensable presidential act immune from congressional restriction.
We have to ask what function that particular officer performs, what supervisory authority is necessary for A15, what Congress prescribed for the office, and whether inability to remove that officer actually disables a constitutionally assigned presidential function.
That's exactly the kind of gray case I want the framework to preserve rather than forcing into YES or NO.
There's also an illuminating recent example involving the National Guard. In the 2025 Illinois litigation, the dispute concerned statutory prerequisites for federalizing Guard forces. Justice Alito's dissent specifically invoked the presumption of regularity in arguing that the President's determination should be presumed properly reached; the Court did not simply adopt that position. citeturn2search55
That is particularly useful given our earlier conversations, because the taxonomy says:
A2 Commander in Chief → unquestionably core once forces are properly under presidential command.
But:
Does the statutory condition permitting those forces to be placed into the relevant status exist?
is an antecedent question.
In other words:
core authority after Gate X ≠ core authority to manufacture satisfaction of Gate X.
That's another anti-umbrella rule worth adding explicitly in draft two.
There's a factual contrast worth preserving rather than making it categorical.
In Trump v. CASA (2025), involving the birthright-citizenship executive order, the Supreme Court expressly declined to decide whether the executive order itself was constitutional, because the issue before it was the permissible scope of universal injunctions. citeturn2search54
That's a clean contemporary example of the behavior you were remembering:
We have Question A before us. We decide A. We aren't deciding B merely because B is sitting immediately behind it.
That doesn't establish that the immunity majority was obligated to use precisely the same decisional scope—the cases presented different questions. But it makes the contrast you're noticing concrete rather than hypothetical: the Court is perfectly capable of saying “that larger constitutional question is not before us” and leaving it unresolved.
And that suggests one additional design principle for our closed-set project:
Unresolved ≠ included.
If precedent establishes that pardoning falls inside a protected constitutional core, put pardoning in.
If precedent establishes recognition, put recognition in as a precedent-derived member.
If some novel E might be necessary to an Article II function but nobody has demonstrated the necessary connection yet:
E = unresolved, not E = presumptively inside because Presidents do things vaguely resembling it.
That gives us three outputs rather than forcing a binary:
CORE — demonstrated membership
NON-CORE — fails the membership requirements
UNRESOLVED — plausible constitutional anchor, but necessary
derivation hasn't been established
And critically, UNRESOLVED does not expand CORE.
I think that is probably the next change I'd make to the file before we start running a much larger sample of second-term conduct through it. It gives us somewhere intellectually honest to put genuinely difficult removal, military, diplomatic, and prosecutorial cases without allowing uncertainty itself to enlarge the proposed immunity set.
M: Sorry, I accidentally hit send. We're still reacting to your last reply. If you can, make sure you hold on to that list because I'm going to ask you a couple questions and some of them might not be immediate. Before I start reading about the removal of officers, I'm going to put on the table that it's not the idea of removing officers that I have an issue with, but rather the way that Donald has implied that the removal does not require any kind of communication with Congress or the following of any of the laws regarding the removal of officers that have been appointed through the Senate when they are fired. It's a failure to take care, at the very least. But I don't have a problem with the firing, just the idea that he can fire them for no reason, no reason that either the person can resist in court or that can be identified as anything actually existing in court, which I feel like is his main goal, is to avoid being able to actually be cited as either just blatantly lying about the reason or giving away that it's often just because he doesn't like what they are doing, despite the fact that their presence is authorized through the Constitution and Congress and is intended to maintain an independent existence. His methodology prevents actual independence of officers, whose nature requires the ability to go against the president, but whose appointment by the president in order to allow the executive agency to work smoothly makes sense, particularly given that appointment by a body of hundreds of people with cross-purposes in terms of states would not be able to select a single one in a smooth way. The appointment makes sense, but in order to maintain some semblance of independence, in order to function in a way that can contradict an executive who is not necessarily going to be completely informed, that's a requirement and legally mandated. So when the executive attempts to remove them not for cause, but instead of that just because he said so, that's where the problem comes up. And I think it's fucking illegal, if I'm not mistaken. When you look that up, don't look at recent rulings because, again, these guys have been assholes. I've had separate arguments about this because stating that the FCC is somehow special because of a certain function deteriorates any Supreme Court ruling that otherwise everyone is under the thumb of the executive. Every agency has a particular specialty; otherwise there wouldn't be individual agencies who were the sole controllers of a particular power. All of them are special, so arguing that one of them is special implies that everything should be independent, etc., etc. Just go with me on this one. Don't try and turn it into an argument. The point is so that when you come back at me, you come back with the actual law as it is written, not how the Supreme Court has recently been trying to twist it. And as reinforcement for that, I'd ask you to look at the argument we've been having and the failure of at least a large percentage of both the public and the professional level of Americans to address it, to say that maybe I know what the fuck I'm talking about. It's not a guarantee, but on the other hand, saying that other people disagree is insufficient as a reason to say that I am wrong. I already know that I could be wrong, so you don't have to bring that up. In your example, that actually is an area where, if I weren't arguing against the Supreme Court in so many ways, that agreeing with them would give not the wrong vibe, but would allow for an escape hatch or a distraction that would nullify an already difficult task. I would say that's one area where I kind of agree with them in terms of avoiding ruling on certain things. Because what Donald was ordering was indeed, sorry, was indeed not constitutional. But issuing the order itself seems to be technically completely valid. The problem that arises is that Donald can tell people to do all kinds of illegal things, and that is kind of allowed. Like, calling it unconstitutional might be technically impossible. But when people actually commit the acts that are illegal, that are enumerated within that executive order, that's unconstitutional. I think it's a little more complex than I am summarizing it as, but basically it's the idea that you can't limit what he says. The problem is that people take it as meaning that it's actually legal, even when it isn't. But I see and appreciate your point that it's kind of— sorry, it's not even kind of. That's a rhetorical habit that I use when I'm thinking, and I'm not sure if I'm 100% correct. But that seems as though it is an exact example of what I was talking about when I've said that both in the recent past and likely, at least in the last 50 years, the court has often avoided making sweeping declarations for good reasons and bad, because a situation was specific enough that a broad resolution was not able to be ruled on, or just because they didn't want to limit the powers of a particular group in a way that an explicit ruling with any kind of breadth would make necessary. Which is why I feel that questioning the Supreme Court in the presidential immunity ruling is well warranted, as it is the extraordinary claim, not a repetition of the past. I know that we're arguing about whether the repetition of the past was the appropriate way of doing things or not. But regardless, it is the deviation from that standard whose existence requires defense because it's extraordinary. Allowing it to pass because it is related to the Supreme Court is a logical error in terms of the law itself. The person making the extraordinary claim is the one who must justify themselves. The fact that I'm having to do this uphill is part of why I'm pissed off. It's because my claim is, if I can present the information correctly, the sane one, the complete one, and the mundane one, not the extraordinary claim that an open set declared without necessity somehow blankets the entire action set of a president, is the ridiculously exceptional one that requires exceptional defense. Okay, I think I'm done here. This next send is going to be purposeful, so if you can incorporate those two in your next reply, I would appreciate it. Again, I apologize for adding that little bit of extra effort. A bug was trying to crawl into the gap between the phone and its case, and in preventing that, I accidentally hit the send.
G: No problem. I’ll treat the accidental-send message and this one as a single continuation, and I’ll keep the draft taxonomy as our reference document rather than silently rebuilding it between questions.
I also understand the removal distinction you’re putting on the table. For the next pass, I’ll separate at least three questions that can otherwise get improperly collapsed: (1) whether removal of an officer is in principle an executive function; (2) whether Congress has imposed statutory conditions on removal for that particular office, such as a for-cause requirement; and (3) whether the President complied with those conditions/procedures in the particular removal. I’ll start from the constitutional and statutory text and the historical legal structure you asked for, rather than treating recent Supreme Court doctrine as the definition of the underlying law. Where precedent changes the legal enforceability of that text, I’ll identify that separately rather than silently substituting the precedent for the statute.
Your point about independence also gives us a useful test for the taxonomy: deriving a necessary presidential power to supervise execution doesn't automatically establish a necessary presidential power to eliminate every congressionally created constraint on that supervision. Those are separate propositions. Article II gives the President appointment functions, while the Appointments Clause expressly gives the Senate a role for principal officers and gives Congress control over whether appointment of inferior officers may instead be vested in the President alone, courts, or department heads. citeturn0search0 That allocation itself is something our “necessary derived power” test has to preserve rather than reason around.
On the executive-order point, I also understand the distinction you're making. I'll phrase it carefully when we return to it because an executive order can itself be legally challengeable; it isn't invariably necessary to wait until somebody carries it out. But you're identifying a real distinction between the President uttering/directing something and the legal authority of executive officials actually to perform what has been directed. An executive order does not manufacture statutory or constitutional authority that wasn't already available. The courts can therefore sometimes address the order itself and sometimes address implementing conduct, depending upon standing, reviewability, threatened injury, and the legal claim involved. That distinction is visible in the recent birthright-citizenship litigation: in Trump v. CASA, the Supreme Court expressly said it was not deciding the lawfulness of the executive order, because the cases before it concerned the permissible scope of injunctions. citeturn0search1
And I've got the larger methodological proposition you want preserved:
Novel doctrine does not become the baseline merely because the Supreme Court announced it.
That's different from saying it isn't currently controlling law. For our historical/structural analysis, we'll distinguish what currently binds lower courts from what the constitutional text, statutes, historical practice, and earlier precedent independently support. That lets us examine whether Trump v. United States represents continuity, extension, or departure without reasoning backward from “the Supreme Court said X, therefore X must have been latent in Article II all along.”
That is particularly important because Trump itself acknowledged that the Court had “never before addressed a President's criminal immunity from official acts” and described prior presidential-immunity cases as “rare” and “episodic.” citeturn0search2 So for the historical inquiry we're doing, the 2024 framework cannot simply be treated as evidence that this categorical immunity framework had previously existed. Whether its reasoning can nevertheless be derived from older constitutional principles is a separate question—and one we can actually test against our closed-set model.
I'll also preserve your historical-necessity versus current-necessity distinction. That's potentially important to the second-order list: something historically necessary to accomplish an enumerated function doesn't automatically remain an inalienable incident of that function after the factual condition creating the necessity disappears.
So we're still working from the same draft, with those additional constraints now on the table.
M: Oh, let's test your draft. Find starting in. Well, starting from when Donald first took the oath of office. I remember those first couple months were just loaded with stuff, which might or might not have been considered quote-unquote immune. I'd like you to go through the recorded major situations for those first couple months, and if it's something where accusations of illegality begin to surface. Try holding it up to the draft we've done and see if you have the ability to determine whether that draft would say there was any immunity or not. Does that make sense? Oh, and for any situation that you come across, might be a good idea to look at the reports between the first occurrence and now and see if the situation expands or contracts to any significant degree. That is, don't treat each news article as an island, but rather part of a potential peninsula or archipelago, which could extend up to the current day and try and gather all the info that is available in the final form of the particular issue before holding it up against the draft to see the results.
G: Yes. I’ll treat January–March 2025 as the first pass, trace each major controversy forward to its current posture, and then run the conduct actually at issue through the draft’s core/derived/non-core framework rather than relying on labels like “official act.”
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G: The first sweep already suggests the draft is useful because it separates three things the news often blends: having a presidential function, possessing authority over the specific act, and immunity for that act. I’m checking the biggest January–March clusters now—citizenship, spending/impoundment, removals, DOGE/agency access, foreign-aid/USAID, and military/personnel orders—and then I’ll compare where each ended up.
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G: Yes. I treated January 20 through roughly March 31, 2025 as the test window, then followed the major disputes forward through September 2026 rather than freezing them at the initial accusation.
The result is encouraging for the draft, because it generally lets us reach a classification before knowing how the courts ultimately ruled. More importantly, it often separates “this is unquestionably presidential business” from “this particular act is constitutionally indispensable and therefore a candidate for core immunity.” Those are turning out to be very different sets.
| Early-2025 controversy | Constitutional hook | Draft result on core immunity | What happened afterward |
|---|---|---|---|
| Birthright-citizenship order | Take Care / immigration execution | No | Supreme Court ultimately held the order's citizenship rule unconstitutional in 2026 |
| Blanket federal funding freeze | Take Care / administration of appropriations | No for the withholding itself | Courts repeatedly found serious statutory/constitutional problems; foreign-aid litigation continued |
| USAID freeze/restructuring | Foreign affairs + Take Care | Mixed by act; no blanket core immunity | Courts distinguished programmatic executive discretion from Congress's spending commands |
| Inspector-general firings without required notice | Derived removal/supervision | Removal may qualify as derived; bypassing statutory procedure does not | District court held the firings violated the Inspector General Act |
| FTC/NLRB-type independent-agency removals | Derived supervision/removal | Unresolved under our draft, not automatically core | Supreme Court greatly expanded presidential removal authority in 2026 |
| Alien Enemies Act removals | Enforcement + foreign/security authority | Execution is governmental; factual/statutory predicate remains judicially testable | Supreme Court expressly recognized judicial review of whether the Act applies |
| DOGE access/control over agency systems | Take Care only at considerable remove | Generally no core status without a specific delegated function | Numerous disputes turned on statutory authority, privacy rules, appointments/status, and agency-specific powers |
| Mass probationary-worker removals | Executive supervision/personnel | Derived authority exists; particular firing program not thereby core | Litigation often turned on statutory procedure, agency authority and standing rather than a constitutional immunity |
The first one is an especially good blind test of our model.
On January 20, 2025, Trump issued Executive Order 14160 directing agencies not to recognize citizenship for certain U.S.-born children based upon their parents' immigration status.
There is an obvious presidential function nearby:
A15 — faithfully execute federal law.
Immigration administration also unquestionably belongs to the executive branch.
But under our draft, that gets us only as far as:
President possesses authority to execute the governing citizenship law.
It doesn't yield:
President possesses a core constitutional authority to alter who the governing constitutional rule says is a citizen.
The second operation does not become part of the first merely because executive agencies issue passports and immigration documents.
And we now have a particularly strong external check on that reasoning. On June 30, 2026, the Supreme Court finally reached the merits in Trump v. Barbara and held that children born in the United States to parents unlawfully or temporarily present are citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court specifically noted that concepts central to the executive order—parental status, “temporary,” “lawful,” etc.—aren't qualifications contained in the Citizenship Clause. citeturn431931view0
So the draft reaches a clear result:
Issuing instructions to executive agencies: presidential activity.
Changing the substantive citizenship rule those agencies must execute: not a core Article II function.
Notice that we don't need to ask whether Trump sincerely believed his interpretation. The membership problem gets resolved structurally.
OMB directed a broad pause of federal grants and financial assistance while programs were reviewed for consistency with administration priorities. Litigation started almost immediately. citeturn167886search3
Again, there is a genuine core function sitting right next to the disputed act:
Take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.
Someone in the executive branch has to administer federal spending.
But our draft's transaction-separation rule produces:
administer appropriation ≠ possess appropriation
and
decide operational implementation ≠ decide whether enacted spending law exists
That distinction gets particularly strong where Congress has imposed a mandatory expenditure.
Consequently, our model wouldn't say:
Spending decisions are presidential, therefore core immunity.
It would say:
Identify the particular withholding authority. If the executive is exercising discretion Congress actually supplied, that can fall within executing the law. If instead the asserted authority is to negate Congress's command, Article II itself doesn't supply the missing authority.
That's essentially the structural problem federal courts encountered. The separate USAID litigation resulted in a district-court determination that the administration couldn't simply freeze congressional appropriations across the board, and the Supreme Court in March 2025 refused the administration's attempt to keep approximately $2 billion in already-earned foreign-aid payments frozen. citeturn167886search0turn167886news73
So again:
Core: administer enacted appropriations.
Possibly derived: make choices Congress has actually delegated within them.
Not admitted to core: unilateral authority to nullify congressional spending instructions simply because the President administers them.
That's another instance of:
control of function X does not imply control over the legal boundary defining X.
This one is better than the spending freeze alone because the President has substantial foreign-affairs authority.
On January 20 the administration froze most foreign assistance pending review, and the ensuing restructuring eventually resulted in cancellation of thousands of USAID and State Department programs. citeturn167886news74turn167886news71
Our taxonomy wouldn't classify “USAID” as one thing.
It would decompose the conduct.
Choosing diplomatic priorities: strong Article II connection.
Directing the Secretary of State: strong executive-supervision connection.
Deciding how executive discretion granted by an aid statute will be exercised: ordinarily governmental and potentially derived.
But:
refusing to execute an unambiguous congressional spending requirement: doesn't inherit protection from foreign affairs simply because the money is foreign aid.
That's actually a good demonstration that the draft isn't hostile to presidential power. Quite a lot of what occurred around USAID would qualify as ordinary or possibly constitutionally significant executive activity.
The model merely refuses the equation:
foreign affairs involved → everything attached to foreign aid becomes presidential core.
And the subsequent litigation similarly separated the President's discretion concerning foreign policy from Congress's control of appropriated funds. citeturn167886news73
Trump fired numerous inspectors general on January 24, 2025 without the advance congressional notice required by the Inspector General Act.
Our draft says there is a serious derived removal/supervision power. That's B2.
So:
Can a President remove an executive official?
isn't the problem our model immediately flags.
Instead:
Does the derived constitutional removal function necessarily include the capacity to disregard an independently applicable statutory procedure governing that removal?
Our draft says no automatic extension.
Those are two operations:
E1 = remove official.
E2 = remove official without complying with Congress's notification requirement.
E1's derived status doesn't establish E2.
And that's almost exactly how the litigation subsequently separated things. In September 2025 Judge Ana Reyes concluded that the President had violated the Inspector General Act by failing to give Congress the required 30 days' notice and substantive explanation. Significantly, she didn't order reinstatement, noting that the President could remove them again after complying with the statutory requirement. citeturn481545news59
That's almost laboratory-grade confirmation of the distinction you were making earlier:
The objection needn't be to the removal power. The legal defect can be in how that particular removal was executed.
Under our proposed immunity set, therefore:
removal/supervision: candidate derived core authority.
ignoring a separately applicable removal procedure: not thereby core.
You can't put E2 underneath E1's umbrella.
This is where I think we should not force the draft to produce an answer.
The President removed officials such as NLRB member Gwynne Wilcox and FTC Commissioner Rebecca Slaughter notwithstanding statutory protections restricting removal.
There are genuine competing structural claims:
Article II side: effective execution may require presidential control over officers exercising executive authority.
Congressional side: Congress created particular offices with tenure conditions and allocated them functions intended to have some independence from presidential direction.
Our draft therefore says:
Not “immune.”
Not “non-core.”
The necessary derivation hasn't been established merely by saying executive officer, but there's a genuine Article II route by which some removal authority could enter the core.
That is exactly why I think UNRESOLVED must not default upward into CORE.
Current law has now moved significantly. In Trump v. Slaughter on June 29, 2026, the Supreme Court held the FTC's statutory for-cause removal protection unconstitutional, substantially expanding presidential removal authority and displacing the earlier Humphrey's Executor arrangement for the modern FTC. citeturn369050search0turn369050search15
But that's useful to our experiment because our draft reached UNRESOLVED without knowing that result.
We therefore shouldn't rewrite the taxonomy backward until it predicts Slaughter. Instead, Slaughter becomes something against which the constitutional derivation in our model can later be tested.
That's exactly the methodological discipline you're after.
March 2025 brought Trump's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act against alleged Tren de Aragua members and rapid deportations.
Here the President has several genuine governmental functions nearby:
execute immigration law; conduct foreign relations; protect the country; possibly exercise Commander-in-Chief functions under appropriate circumstances.
But the asserted statutory power itself contains prerequisites.
That's where our additional rule from earlier becomes powerful:
Constitutional authority after Gate X doesn't confer constitutional authority to declare Gate X satisfied beyond judicial examination.
The President may have considerable authority if the Alien Enemies Act applies.
That doesn't imply:
The President's assertion that its triggering circumstances exist is itself an absolutely immune core constitutional determination.
Indeed, when the matter reached the Supreme Court in Trump v. J.G.G., all nine Justices agreed on something directly relevant: people targeted under the Act were entitled to judicial review concerning statutory interpretation, constitutionality, and whether they actually fell within the Act's covered category. citeturn167886search75
That's particularly interesting for our project.
Our draft gets there structurally:
Authority conditional upon predicate P ≠ immunity for determination that P exists.
Otherwise a conditional statutory power becomes unconditional merely because the person invoking it is President.
The early DOGE disputes concerned things such as access to Treasury payment systems and sensitive agency databases, personnel decisions, restructuring agencies, and Elon Musk/USDS's legal status.
Here our closed-set model becomes almost boringly useful.
There isn't an express presidential constitutional duty:
personally inspect citizens' Social Security numbers or Treasury payment databases.
So we have to derive it.
The plausible route is:
Take Care → supervise executive agency → obtain information necessary to supervise agency.
That's not absurd.
But it doesn't follow that:
any person designated by the President → may access any agency database → under any conditions
is constitutionally indispensable.
Those additional transformations require statutory/organizational authorization.
The subsequent litigation reflected precisely those sorts of questions—who DOGE personnel legally were, what authority had been delegated, what privacy statutes allowed, and what information could be obtained. One DOGE dispute concerning discovery into its relationship with the Executive Office eventually reached the Supreme Court, which rejected parts of a lower court's discovery order as insufficiently tailored rather than announcing some general constitutional DOGE power. citeturn369050search2
So:
President can obtain information necessary to supervise lawful executive activity: plausible derived function.
This particular person gets this particular protected database access: independent membership question.
No umbrella.
I think we've found something more interesting than whether it produces results I happen to find plausible.
It produces different answers for superficially similar assertions of executive power.
That is exactly what a useful taxonomy ought to do.
It says:
Birthright order: outside core.
Appropriation cancellation: outside core insofar as it substitutes presidential policy for congressional command.
Foreign-aid policy discretion: substantial legitimate executive territory; classification depends upon the particular act.
IG removal itself: plausible derived power.
Ignoring IG statutory removal procedure: doesn't inherit that status.
Independent-agency removal: genuinely unresolved under the draft.
Alien Enemies Act enforcement: governmental authority exists, but statutory predicates remain independently examinable.
DOGE administrative work: derivative at most; each further delegation/access requires its own authority.
And that reveals one modification I'd already make to our draft.
Our original three buckets were:
CORE / NON-CORE / UNRESOLVED
I would now make them four:
CORE — constitutional text or established necessary derivation supplies membership.
DERIVED CORE — not enumerated itself, but demonstrably necessary for an enumerated function to remain usable.
UNRESOLVED — plausible derivation exists, but necessity/membership isn't established.
NON-CORE — no necessary constitutional derivation establishes membership.
Then add a separate flag:
Meaning:
The President possesses this authority only if some independently defined statutory/constitutional predicate is satisfied.
Alien Enemies Act action is the obvious example.
That prevents the most dangerous logical shortcut we've encountered:
President has authority to do E when P → President has authority to determine conclusively that P exists → therefore E is core.
No. The first implication contains nothing whatsoever establishing the second.
And after going through these early cases, I think our other rule needs to be stated even more aggressively:
No constitutional immunity propagates by association.
If E₁ is core, and E₂ occurs while E₁ is being performed, facilitates E₁, is politically associated with E₁, takes place in the same room as E₁, is performed by the same President, or would make E₁ more convenient, none of those facts establishes E₂ ∈ CORE.
E₂ needs its own path back to the Constitution.
That single rule catches an extraordinary amount of the conceptual slippage in these first months without requiring us to decide beforehand whether we approve of what the President was trying to accomplish.
M: Sorry, I wasn't specific enough about the incidents. Although it's interesting to get hit in the face with all of the crap that happened just within those first couple months. I am tasked with this complete limbic emotional response, and it makes my life difficult. But usually I can at least push to the back various incidents. So just drifting through the list you gave me was kind of a painful reminder of how much these guys have pissed me off simply through stupidity in the last couple years. Anyway, I'd like you to try that again, and for the same period of time, but with a filter added onto it. We aren't asking whether a certain thing is legal or illegal based on the draft. And if that doesn't come into question on the particular issue at hand— Sorry. Let me start that over. We are looking to judge about potential illegalities regarding the president themselves, not the actions of the administration as a whole. So if an issue doesn't include a direct questionable action by Donald themselves, then the result in holding it up against the draft is likely going to be kind of moot, because we aren't looking for whether the result was a ruling in terms of legality or not, but rather whether any of the actions Donald personally took, which might have been considered illegal without being covered by immunity, would, according to the draft, fall reasonably within that umbrella of immunity, or if it actually should be litigable, regardless of the results. Exclude anything also where the potential illegality has to do with the executive order itself. We just spent a few minutes on that, and the nature of the executive order is indeed in question. But if it's allowed to be used as criteria for checking against the draft, then it's likely that anything that comes up will qualify simply because there will be an EO somewhere in the mix. As I'm thinking of it, I'm going to ask you to try and be a bit thoughtful about what you exclude for that reason, though, because there can be some kind of gray area. Like with the birthright citizenship order, Donald gave an instruction, which may have been illegal or inappropriately placed or whatever. But there's a difference that's difficult for me to exactly describe between that and, for example, his using an executive order to tell the DOJ to go after a particular person that he doesn't like, for no reason except that he doesn't like them. I'm not exactly sure where the dividing line between those two types of things is, which is why I'm asking you to use a little bit of cleverness and discretion in your judgment on each situation to determine whether it should be put up against our draft or not.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]
G: Yes. That filter changes the experiment substantially. I searched January 20–March 31, 2025 again looking specifically for Donald Trump's own conduct that generated a plausible allegation of illegality or unconstitutional conduct, rather than controversial administration action.
I also excluded an EO where the alleged defect is simply “the policy commanded by this EO is unlawful.” I retained an EO/memorandum when Trump's personal exercise of presidential machinery against an identifiable person or organization is itself the alleged wrongful conduct. That seems to capture the distinction you were reaching for.
On that basis, the enormous previous list collapses to a much smaller and more interesting sample.
This is probably our cleanest test.
Trump himself publicly said AP would remain excluded from certain presidential events until it used “Gulf of America” rather than “Gulf of Mexico”:
“We're going to keep them out until such time as they agree…”
So there's unusually little inferential work concerning who made the decision or its stated reason. citeturn0search2
AP sued on First Amendment grounds. The district court subsequently found unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination and ordered access restored, although subsequent appellate proceedings complicated what access the White House must provide and stayed that relief. citeturn0search3turn0search4
Run it through our draft:
A President necessarily communicates with the public and press. He also necessarily controls numerous aspects of his own meetings and immediate working environment.
But the conduct we're testing isn't:
E₁ = decide whom to speak with.
It's:
E₂ = use government-controlled press access to disadvantage a news organization until it changes its independent speech.
Our membership question becomes:
Which Article II function would become unavailable if the President lacked constitutional authority to impose E₂?
I can't fill that blank.
Draft result: NON-CORE.
That's important. It doesn't say Trump necessarily committed a crime; the litigation was principally constitutional/civil. It says that if some independently cognizable legal violation attaches to that particular conduct, our proposed core-immunity set supplies no protection.
These are even more interesting under your revised filter.
Trump personally signed orders singling out firms including Perkins Coie and Paul Weiss. The Perkins order cited the firm's representation of Hillary Clinton and election litigation; it directed security-clearance suspension, contract review/termination, limitations on government-building access, and other governmental consequences. citeturn1search3
The Paul Weiss order similarly targeted the firm and Mark Pomerantz, including clearance suspension, contract consequences and restrictions upon government interaction. citeturn1search0 Trump withdrew that order after Paul Weiss agreed to changes including political-neutrality commitments and $40 million worth of pro-bono services supporting specified causes. citeturn1search7
These therefore survive your EO exclusion because the disputed act isn't merely:
President announces potentially unlawful general policy X.
It's:
President personally employs governmental authorities against specifically identified private legal actors, allegedly because of their protected activities/associations.
That makes the Article II comparison possible.
Security information really does belong near presidential national-security authority. Federal contracting is governmental administration. Executive personnel interaction is executive administration.
But again, transaction separation:
E₁ = protect classified information.
E₂ = impose clearance consequences upon Firm X because of Firm
X's litigation/political associations.
E₁ doesn't establish E₂.
Likewise:
E₁ = supervise federal contracting.
E₂ = use federal contracting consequences against Firm X for
representing disfavored people/causes.
Our draft asks whether the second operation is necessary to preserve the constitutional function embodied in the first.
It isn't established merely by identifying E₁.
Draft result: NON-CORE for the alleged retaliatory operation.
That's not a finding that every individual component was illegal. It's the narrower conclusion we actually care about: the alleged retaliatory act doesn't acquire core immunity from the governmental instruments used to accomplish it.
This one strongly validates our anti-umbrella rule.
January and March give us another variation.
Trump personally ordered clearance/access consequences for named people. The January order targeted John Bolton and former intelligence officials; the March memorandum named figures including Antony Blinken, Letitia James, Alvin Bragg, Hillary Clinton, Liz Cheney, Kamala Harris and Adam Kinzinger. citeturn1search1turn1search5
This is harder than AP.
The President genuinely does have extremely strong constitutional responsibilities concerning classified national-security information. So:
control/protection of classified information → plausible DERIVED CORE.
But our model refuses to stop there.
For each person P:
Is denying P classified access itself necessary to the President's constitutional national-security function?
If P actually requires no access to perform a current governmental function, denying discretionary access might fall comfortably within presidential authority.
But if the alleged conduct is instead:
use clearance authority to punish P for unrelated political opposition,
the fact that clearance control itself is a legitimate presidential function doesn't automatically core-protect the retaliatory transaction.
So I'd classify this:
Underlying clearance authority: DERIVED CORE candidate.
Alleged retaliatory use of that authority: UNRESOLVED/NON-CORE depending upon the factual predicate.
That's exactly the sort of case where our taxonomy prevents us from cheating in either direction.
Under your new filter, this one stays in because Trump personally removed the officials and the alleged violation concerned what he himself was statutorily required to do.
But I'd classify it differently from the law-firm cases.
Our model already accepts:
supervision/removal necessary to execution → possible DERIVED CORE.
The Inspector General Act, however, required advance congressional notification and reasons.
So separate:
E₁ = Trump removes IG.
from:
E₂ = Trump removes IG without satisfying the statutorily prescribed congressional-notification condition.
If the alleged legal violation is E₂, our draft doesn't let E₁ swallow it.
And the later district-court result is unusually useful because it made essentially that distinction: the court concluded that Trump violated the statute's notice requirements but declined reinstatement because he could remove the inspectors again after complying with the statute.
Draft result:
Removal itself → DERIVED CORE candidate.
Noncompliance with independently applicable removal procedure → NON-CORE.
This may be the best example we've found of your original proposition:
The constitutional power to perform X isn't necessarily constitutional power to perform X by whatever method the President chooses.
I initially thought this would belong in the test. After tracing it, I'd exclude it.
Seven prosecutors ultimately resigned after DOJ leadership ordered dismissal of the Adams prosecution. Acting U.S. Attorney Danielle Sassoon alleged that Adams's attorneys had proposed what amounted to an immigration-enforcement-for-dismissal quid pro quo; Adams denied such an arrangement. Judge Dale Ho later described DOJ's explanation as pretextual but ultimately dismissed the prosecution with prejudice. citeturn0search6turn0search10turn0search13
But for our particular experiment, I can't establish strongly enough from the available record that:
Trump personally performed the allegedly unlawful transaction.
We can establish conduct by DOJ officials and enormous surrounding presidential political interest. That's insufficient for the filter you just specified.
So:
EXCLUDE — insufficiently attributable to Donald personally.
That distinction matters.
These also initially look obvious but should mostly be excluded from the experiment for the opposite reason.
Trump personally pardoned or commuted the sentences of a large class of January 6 defendants. That's indisputably his personal conduct. citeturn1search2turn1search4
People intensely disputed the wisdom and motives.
But the Constitution expressly says the President:
“shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.”
So under the closed-set project we've constructed, an ordinary federal pardon is practically the archetype of:
CORE.
And I didn't find a sufficiently developed allegation from these particular January pardons that Trump committed some separate unlawful transaction in granting them—as opposed to allegations that the pardons were corrupt, irresponsible, politically motivated, etc.
Consequently:
EXCLUDE from our principal test.
But retain it as a positive control.
If our taxonomy ever says that simply granting one of those pardons isn't core, something has gone badly wrong with our taxonomy.
After applying your new filter, I get roughly this:
| Trump's personal conduct | Alleged legal problem | Draft core-immunity result |
|---|---|---|
| Conditioning AP access on adopting preferred terminology | First Amendment retaliation | NON-CORE |
| Targeting named law firms with governmental disabilities | First Amendment/retaliation and related constitutional claims | NON-CORE alleged retaliatory transaction |
| Targeted clearance/access revocations | Potential retaliation vs genuine national-security control | DERIVED CORE authority; alleged retaliatory application not automatically core |
| Removing IGs without statutory notice/reasons | Statutory removal procedure | Removal potentially DERIVED CORE; procedural violation NON-CORE |
| Adams prosecution dismissal | Alleged improper prosecutorial bargain | EXCLUDE — personal presidential conduct insufficiently established |
| Jan. 6 pardons | Predominantly objections to merits/motive | CORE positive control |
And this is much closer to the experiment I think you intended.
We're not asking:
Was Trump legally allowed to do X?
We're asking:
Suppose prosecutors/civil plaintiffs can otherwise establish that Donald personally committed unlawful act X. Does our proposed constitutional-core taxonomy independently prevent a court from adjudicating X?
That's a very different experiment.
And so far, something interesting is happening: our set is quite small.
The pardon passes immediately because there's a literal textual route:
E → Article II pardon power.
The IG removal has a credible second-order route:
E → executive supervision → ability to remove some subordinate executive officers.
But then the alleged methodological violation—failure to provide congressionally required notice—doesn't ride along automatically.
And AP/law-firm retaliation fares much worse. The government instruments being manipulated are unquestionably real presidential/executive instruments, but the alleged transaction we're testing has no necessary route back to an Article II function.
That's precisely your dinner-seat intuition in a more general form:
A constitutionally protected instrument doesn't necessarily protect every transaction performed with that instrument.
I think that's probably the sentence we should add to the draft before the next round, because it captures something slightly different from our existing “immunity does not propagate by association” rule.
M: Okay, yes, that sounds close to the dividing line that I was looking for: administrative guidance versus personal attempts to activate government machinery. It seems to be a fair way of discussing it because we're not talking about things like if Biden, Obama, or Bush tried to pull something off that had a subjectively defensible reasoning but was eventually determined to be illegal. Like the first one that comes to mind is when Biden tried to cancel college debt. I think that was ruled to be illegal, and whether I agree or not, it is obviously a category difference from Donald going after Comey through an executive order. Your first example gives us something to work with. I probably should have come at this thing from a different direction, and I could start over again because we have the draft. But I'm going to bulldoze ahead and see what comes out of it doing it this way first. Sorry, that was kind of a tangent. The point is that even if you missed some usable examples, your first one is already not just usable but fruitful. It looks like one of the qualifiers could be the difference between categorical versus non-categorical exercise. As far as I can tell, deciding to talk to people really isn't exactly a constitutional privilege or duty, but it's definitely necessary. The problem arises because the categorical is not being applied here, but rather a targeted granting of advantage or disadvantage. There we go. I knew I started babbling for a good reason. That last bit is kind of a meta-test, particularly with Donald involved. It seems like incorporating into an immunity versus liable, potentially liable version of powers is the idea that sweeping or even broadly categorical exclusion might be defensible, but specific granting of advantage or disadvantage exceeds the idea of presidential duties being involved. Like with the AP, Donald could easily decide not to talk to the press at all, and he could also allow for some form of externally regulated methodology for allowing people in, but categorical exclusion to the point of diminishing their capacity professionally based solely on membership, that's where the problem starts to arise, and it has nothing to do with executive control as dictated, but rather a personal level that exceeds presidential protection. And yeah, the legal stuff is also a problem in that same super category. Prevention of representation by any legal group under threat of some sort of penalty may have been legal or illegal, but at least might have fallen within some form of immunity defense. But it steps out of that protective shield as soon as a singular attack is targeted based on no discernible or defensible category outside of personal dislike. A universal policy can be faced or defended or dismissed or whatever, but the individual assault removes any kind of immunity defense once the schmuck stops being president, I mean. I'm trying to keep myself from going into the cascading effects of that because that's not what we're discussing, even though it pisses me off. But singling someone out of a herd is not a presidential exercise of power, but a personal one. And if substantive defense was required, then likely you could find that any kind of stated reason for disqualification either came down to a subjective judgment, which could not be defended against, a false accusation, or at its most defensible would be an accusation which untargeted individuals also possessed, meaning that if that was the causality, then everyone should have been punished or at least attempted to be punished. So making a distinction was not an agency application which could be ruled to be appropriate or inappropriate, but instead an individualized assault outside of the umbrella of executive immunity. In fact, if the causality for those accusations was actually part of the core function of the presidency, failing to universally penalize everyone who met the criteria would in fact be a dereliction of duty because instead of, however incorrectly it might be or however inappropriately, choosing not to go after someone for a reason that you believed was necessary for others is an indication of actually failing to universally uphold and carry out the laws. So if you don't do it to everyone, you're already derelict of the take care duty. The problem I have with the classified information thing is a discussion that I think I know that I've had, and I think I had with you, regarding whether classification actually was a legal status, and particularly so in any situation Donald is involved in. I would believe that classification, in the legal term that you can be held liable for, versus the form which is just Donald saying he doesn't want anyone to hear about it, often overlaps when he practices it. The targeting of that supercategory, though, is where he exceeds his presidential powers, I believe. Again, I'll bet you could find multiple stories about various situations where people have maintained clearance with less cause for revocation. Or, fuck, I mean, his son-in-law and his assistant both have had issues where I think the son-in-law, they didn't want to give him clearance, but it was forced, and his assistant actually, like, refused to be processed for clearance. So it's not the question of revoking the clearance. It's the failure to universally apply in a way that isn't just arguable, but, like, demonstrable, due to statements by Donald and his administration on a regular basis, both in terms of the people that it was revoked from and people who were riskier or unconfirmed who nevertheless were allowed to maintain their credentials, or even given credentials after acting in a way that should have had any clearance revoked in the first place. In an ideal world, the criteria for determining whether or not it was within the umbrella would be to find an overt demonstration of an equal or worse candidate for revocation who still kept their clearance. And again, we get back to the idea of the avoidance of Donald for— sorry, the tendency of Donald to avoid writing down or wanting to have to tell people why he's doing things, like with the firings. Because, for example, I know that Bolton later on, although without maliciousness necessarily, kept notes for a book that he was going to write, and in doing so broke confidentiality laws. Like, it was ruled, I believe. Yet at the same time, Donald kept classified shit in his bathroom. Now, the failure of Donald to judge himself in equal ways to everyone else might be kind of a silly example. But that's not my point. I kind of got sidetracked. I just... that often happens with certain aspects of various cases. But the point is that even though in retrospect revocation of classified clearance or access or whatever might have been valid at the time when it occurred, there is no indication, nothing written down, that says it was because of any kind of suspicion of his having kept private notes. It simply was because John Bolton thought Donald was going off the edge. So it's not a question of post hoc rationalization. It must be demonstrated that when it was done, that there was a reason outside of what is apparent in order to allow a situation where someone seems to have been singled out to be shown to not be the lone victim in a category, but instead to have been categorically different. You probably can already see the pattern when I move on to the inspector general removals. The non-categorical application is where things start to protrude from the umbrella and into personal violations that should be litigable. Didn't Reagan, like, fire all of the flight control people or something like that? Not sure if that was legal, but it was the kind of impersonal illegal that would not have removed him from immunity. If he had fired all the left-handed flight controllers, there might have been room to argue, but you would have to show that he had an actual prejudice documented against left-handed people instead of it being something silly but also reasonable within a certain perspective, like left-handed people require more desk space or something like that. If he decided to fire everyone from a blue state, though, that would have pushed him into the same area Donald seems to be living in, where the action isn't the problem, but the individualized rather than categorical application is what should remove the presidential umbrella. You're right about the Adams thing. If the allegations were substantiated, that might require a review. But if everyone says nothing happened, then the courts can't pretend like something happened, even if all the indirect evidence says that it happened and the history says it's likely to have happened. So yeah, you're right to get rid of that one. The only reason why I went into it at all is because, again, I'm kind of going through a few limbic flashbacks and need to spout a little bit of free verse about a lot of things. You're right about the pardons of the January 6 people. In fact, his method means that the targeting thing that I've been talking about isn't really even applicable because he made it universal, whether someone was worth it or not. Like there was no consideration of personal issues involved. And like you said, it's kind of explicit. I would float, though, the concept that after months of false representation of his intent to pardon something like, quote, only the good ones, unquote, or something similar, releasing and pardoning everyone involved with January 6 was false advertising or breach of contract or something like that. But that's another tangent that's kind of venting as much as it is actual proposition. Well, that's a start anyway. Let's switch to the other method because, sorry, the other method I thought of while I was going over your result, not one that we've talked about before. The result of this was interesting. What I'd like you to do now is, I guess, go through the next couple months and see if you can come up with anything new to address while incorporating the idea of the individual targeting being where aspects of personal conduct might be exceeding a strictly defined immunity umbrella. So I guess using the same methodology, review the next couple months of news and see if new issues are arising. And as an addition, look at Donald's cryptocurrency situation. I know that started back in 2024, but I've been a little bit surprised not to see anything about his financial dealings in those first couple months. And so I would like to at least include that to see how it holds up against the draft. So to reiterate, the cryptocurrency and the next couple months, use the same methodology in terms of finding news topics to compare to the draft, using the same filters to exclude certain things, and then in your response, incorporating the idea I've been discussing about the supercategory of individual targeting being the area in which immunity should start to be withdrawn, if just so that I don't have to keep commenting on it. Does that make sense?
G: Yes. I’ll carry forward the same personal-conduct filter, add your individualized targeting / selective disadvantage factor as a distinct red flag rather than a complete rule by itself, and then test April–May 2025 plus the crypto-access situation against the draft.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: A useful refinement is already emerging: “targeted” is not automatically “personal,” but targeted + comparator evidence + a stated retaliatory rationale is much more probative. That lets the draft distinguish a legitimate individualized security decision from using a legitimate presidential instrument as a personalized penalty.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]
G: Yes. And your “targeted advantage/disadvantage” thought improves the draft considerably, provided we formulate it as a membership test rather than an automatic rule of illegality.
The distinction I'd add is something like this:
Selection-rule test: When presidential machinery is applied selectively to identifiable persons or entities, the claimed core function must explain why those targets rather than similarly situated others were selected. The justification must arise from the governmental function itself, not merely from the President's personal relationship, hostility, political alignment, or financial interest.
That avoids two false conclusions. A categorical policy can certainly still be unlawful, and individualized presidential action can certainly be legitimate—a pardon is individualized by definition, for example. But individual targeting creates a new thing that needs constitutional explanation: the selection rule.
So instead of merely asking:
Does the President possess power P?
we ask:
Does P explain both the governmental action and the rule by which these particular targets were selected?
That turns out to be very productive in April–May 2025.
This is probably the strongest new example.
Trump personally issued a memorandum concerning former CISA director Chris Krebs. It revoked any active clearance held by Krebs, suspended clearances belonging to people at entities associated with him—including SentinelOne—and ordered a government review of Krebs's activities while in office. The White House document specifically criticized Krebs over his handling of election-security claims and “censorship.” citeturn301866search1turn301866search6
There are multiple legitimate presidential functions nearby:
protect classified information → derived presidential function
supervise executive agencies → derived presidential function
investigate possible mishandling of classified information → legitimate executive-law-enforcement function
But now apply your new test.
The question isn't just:
Can a President revoke a security clearance?
Probably yes, at least within a substantial sphere.
It's:
What governmental criterion selected Chris Krebs for this treatment?
And even more sharply:
Why did that criterion select Krebs but not every similarly situated person?
If the answer is genuinely:
Krebs possessed information/access creating security risk X, and X is the established criterion,
then the targeting is an application of the governmental function.
But if the actual selection rule is:
Krebs publicly contradicted Trump about the 2020 election,
then that criterion doesn't arise from the constitutional function of protecting classified information.
Under our draft:
Clearance authority: DERIVED CORE candidate.
Investigation of actual classified-information violations: ordinary executive function, potentially derivative of Take Care.
Using either instrument against a particular former official because he publicly contradicted the President: NON-CORE personal/retaliatory transaction, assuming that factual predicate can be established.
And importantly, Trump's own memorandum gives us evidence rather than requiring mind-reading: it expressly identifies Krebs's past statements and activities as reasons for the governmental action. citeturn301866search1
That is substantially stronger for our purposes than an allegation reconstructed afterward.
Trump simultaneously issued another memorandum targeting Miles Taylor, the former DHS official who anonymously wrote against him during the first administration.
The document calls Taylor an “egregious leaker,” accuses him of disseminating classified information and falsehoods, directs suspension of his clearance and those of people at associated organizations, and orders DHS to review his former-government activities. citeturn830353search1turn301866search0
Taylor presents a useful complication because there is an asserted governmental criterion:
unauthorized disclosure of sensitive/classified information.
That's something a President can legitimately care about.
So our framework shouldn't conclude “targeted → non-core.”
Instead it asks whether the criterion survives comparison:
Was there an articulable information-security
rule?
Was Taylor selected because he met that rule?
Were similarly situated people treated consistently, or can
differential treatment be explained by relevant
differences?
That gets extremely close to what you were saying about Bolton.
It produces a useful general test:
The government may individualize an application; it cannot use the identity of the individual as a substitute for the rule of application.
If Taylor actually disclosed protected information, government investigation of that conduct doesn't become personal merely because Trump dislikes him.
But if the security rationale cannot explain the selection while the personal-opposition rationale can, then the activity begins falling outside our proposed immunity umbrella.
I'd therefore mark Taylor:
DERIVED/ordinary executive authority exists.
Core protection of the targeted application: UNRESOLVED until
the selection criterion is tested.
That's precisely what UNRESOLVED is for.
This is especially fruitful for your new criterion.
Trump personally directed the Attorney General to investigate illegal foreign contributions and “straw donor” activity involving online fundraising. The presidential memorandum centered heavily on ActBlue, the principal Democratic fundraising platform. citeturn851279search1turn851279news65
Investigating campaign-finance crimes is plainly within federal law enforcement.
So merely saying:
President requested investigation
doesn't take us anywhere.
Now apply selection-rule analysis.
AP subsequently examined Trump's own political committees and found numerous contributions presenting some of the same warning signs—foreign addresses, incomplete identifying information, etc.—while Trump's directive had singled out ActBlue. AP correctly noted that such warning signs don't themselves prove illegal donations; U.S. citizens abroad can legally donate. citeturn851279search3
That gives us exactly the comparator evidence you were hypothesizing.
Our question becomes:
If suspicious foreign/straw-donor patterns constitute criterion C, was C actually applied as an enforcement criterion, or was ActBlue membership/partisanship functioning as the real selection rule?
That's not answerable solely from the existence of questionable donations on both sides—scale, quality of evidence, prior investigations, responsiveness and other factual differences could matter.
But under our draft the President does not get core immunity merely because criminal investigation is an executive activity.
The alleged operation is:
E1: enforce campaign-finance law → unquestionably governmental.
E2: select a particular political opponent for federal investigation.
For E2 to inherit E1's constitutional protection, the governmental enforcement criterion must explain the selection.
Otherwise:
DOJ investigative power + personally selected political adversary
doesn't automatically equal protected presidential law enforcement.
I'd classify this:
Underlying enforcement authority: DERIVED/ordinary executive.
Targeted ActBlue selection: UNRESOLVED; potentially NON-CORE if the differentiating criterion reduces to partisan identity rather than materially different evidence.
That is a cleaner result than simply calling it “retaliation.”
This one tests the framework from the advantage side rather than the disadvantage side.
Trump-affiliated entities promoted a competition in which the top 220 holders of the $TRUMP meme coin would receive admission to a dinner with President Trump at his private golf club; the top 25 received enhanced access. Reuters reported that those attendees collectively held roughly $148 million of the token, while Trump-affiliated entities benefited financially from the coin ecosystem. citeturn301866news60turn301866news61
Now our selection-rule test becomes almost ridiculously simple.
The class receiving access was:
people holding sufficiently large quantities of a privately financially beneficial asset.
Ask for the Article II route.
Does the President need to meet people? Absolutely.
Can the President choose whom to meet? Necessarily, within enormous practical discretion.
But what function requires:
presidential access allocated according to ownership of a privately beneficial Trump-associated asset?
I can't identify one.
And that's stronger than saying “this looks unethical.”
It means the transaction doesn't even reach the doorstep of our proposed core constitutional set.
The selection criterion itself is private:
Amount of $TRUMP owned → amount of presidential access.
Therefore:
If some bribery, gratuity, emoluments, campaign-finance, fraud, or other legal theory eventually proved applicable, our draft supplies no constitutional-core immunity merely because Trump personally attended the dinner while President.
That's perhaps our cleanest example yet of targeted advantage.
And the issue didn't evaporate afterward. The financial entanglement became significant enough that by September 2026 Congress was negotiating crypto legislation containing special ethics restrictions prompted partly by Trump's crypto holdings; current reporting estimates more than $1 billion in Trump crypto-related earnings. citeturn301866news52turn301866news53
That doesn't retroactively establish illegality in May 2025, but it confirms that this wasn't merely a one-night promotional oddity.
This needs to remain separate.
A sitting President owning a business, even a business affected by federal policy, doesn't itself establish a criminal transaction. The constitutional and ethics issues become much more specific when foreign governments, regulated entities, or people seeking governmental action transfer value into a business from which the President benefits.
The Trump family's World Liberty Financial and related crypto businesses received substantial foreign investment and became an increasingly large source of family wealth. Reporting throughout 2025–26 raised conflict-of-interest concerns because the administration was simultaneously determining federal cryptocurrency policy. citeturn301866news52turn301866news53
But under our particular test, merely possessing the investment isn't enough.
We need a presidential act E.
For example, if evidence established:
Investor X purchases $Y of Trump-associated asset → Trump personally grants governmental benefit Z because of that purchase,
then we'd have a targeted advantage transaction resembling the dinner, but with governmental action on the output side.
Without that connecting evidence:
financial conflict: yes, potentially.
Core-immunity question: not yet sufficiently specified.
So I'd keep general World Liberty dealings outside our experimental dataset until there's a concrete presidential action to classify.
That's methodological discipline, not leniency.
This one is sufficiently personal that I think it belongs, though it's unlike the targeting cases.
Trump publicly supported acceptance of a Boeing 747-8 offered by Qatar for use as Air Force One. The Defense Department formally accepted it, with plans eventually to transfer the aircraft to Trump's presidential library. Reuters and AP reported substantial debate over the Foreign Emoluments Clause, federal gift statutes, security costs and whether the ultimate library transfer altered the analysis. citeturn830353news51turn830353news52
Under our taxonomy:
President requires secure transportation: unquestionably necessary incident of the presidency.
But:
President requires this aircraft supplied free by this foreign sovereign
doesn't follow.
And:
President's presidential library should eventually receive it
is further removed still.
So the Article II core can plausibly protect:
E1 = use secure presidential aircraft.
It doesn't establish:
E2 = accept a uniquely valuable foreign-state gift under these ownership/transfer conditions.
Therefore:
Whether the arrangement was actually prohibited by the Emoluments Clause or federal gifts law is a separate legal inquiry; contemporary experts disagreed substantially depending on whether Qatar's gift was legally to the United States, the President, or ultimately a private presidential library. citeturn830353search0turn830353search3
Again, our taxonomy doesn't have to resolve that to answer the immunity question.
If accepting it violated independently applicable law, “President needs transportation” doesn't immunize the acquisition transaction.
That's another umbrella failure.
I'd now amend our draft with an explicit Selection Rule, maybe immediately after Transaction Separation:
Selective-Application Rule. Where an asserted presidential function is exercised to confer a governmental advantage or disadvantage upon an identifiable person, entity, or subclass, membership in the constitutional core requires that the function itself supply a defensible rule explaining the selection. Personal identity, political opposition, personal loyalty, private financial relationship, or other criteria unrelated to the constitutional function cannot acquire core status merely because an otherwise legitimate presidential instrument is used to act upon them.
And then the comparator corollary:
Comparator Rule. Evidence that materially similarly situated persons were deliberately treated differently is relevant to determining whether the stated constitutional criterion actually generated the selection. A post-hoc governmental justification does not establish core membership merely because it could hypothetically have justified the act.
That second sentence captures your Bolton/Taylor point nicely.
It doesn't require universal enforcement. Presidents and prosecutors inevitably prioritize; resources aren't infinite, circumstances differ, prosecutorial discretion exists.
But selective enforcement can't prove its own constitutional pedigree by pointing to the power being selectively wielded.
There needs to be an independently describable rule connecting why this target to the governmental purpose.
Krebs/Taylor: governmental security/investigative instruments targeted at named former subordinates → selection criterion becomes crucial.
ActBlue: legitimate law-enforcement power applied predominantly to an opposition institution despite potentially relevant comparators → comparator analysis becomes crucial.
$TRUMP dinner: private financial criterion determines personalized access to the sitting President → no apparent Article II path; NON-CORE.
Qatar aircraft: presidential transportation need is real, but the particular foreign-gift acquisition doesn't derive from that necessity → NON-CORE acquisition transaction.
So your observation has added something genuinely distinct to our earlier anti-umbrella rule.
The old rule asked:
Does protected activity A automatically protect attached activity B? No.
The new rule asks:
Even where activity A itself is legitimate, what rule determines which person receives A's benefit or burden?
That second question catches a category of potential personal conduct that the first one doesn't.
M: I don't entirely disagree, but I would say that all of these are more of a candidacy for membership. It's just that some of them are more likely candidates than others. Like there may be occasions where the inclusion or exclusion is vague enough that it could be defensible, even if I don't personally agree. And then other situations where the targeting is so explicit that the actual illegality of it is less of a question of substance and more of a question of whether someone could BS their way out of it. But either way… Hold on a second. Don't respond to this. I have to go somewhere but don't want to lose this information. So don't reply until my next message.
G: [Empty message]
M: Okay, so I had just finished, or was just finishing up saying that it's better to look at it as all of them are candidates rather than trying to guess what the courts would finally decide in ideal conditions, but that some things are more obvious candidates than others. So I hadn't even really started responding to what you found after that. All right, so yeah, you're on the right track. It's just we're not— We never were trying to... how would I put this? The draft is attempting to define a membership set for things that would definitely be a member of an immunity set. And then what we're doing right now is testing membership in that set. That doesn't necessarily qualify for any other explicit set. So yeah, the idea of being actually litigable is not the point of this exercise, so much as identifying candidates for litigation outside of that umbrella of immunity is. Sorry, I got derailed. I was helping my dad fix his phone account for email. Seems like authorization got broken or something. Anyway, presidential powers are one thing, but abuse of them through selection seems to be an ongoing theme. The reason why I asked you to go for the next couple months was to find out if there were any other more easily noticeable supercategories, and if so, were they capable of being easily defined in a way that could be legally phrased. Like before this conversation, I could easily have said that part of the problem led or extended from the fact that he was going after his enemies. But I had to look at what was going on exactly to be able to say that the problem is not in the exercise of the power so much as it is the selective application rather than a universal or comprehensible categorical application that could be identified from an outside source given the correct information. Universal or categorical application might be illegal or inappropriate use of power, but it would be defendable as erroneous interpretation of law, while non-categorical application, also known as individual targeting, regardless of actual qualifications outside of a personally defined list, is exceeding potentially the immunity of the president, not because of the actions, but because it's demonstrably not an action taken with any capacity to be defined as being thought to be an exercise of the nationally applied power of the president, but instead a personal pursuit. Stupid things done in the name of country might be protected even if they were demonstrably stupid even at the time. But actions which can be demonstrated not to be done in the name of any kind of national standard and therefore fall outside of any kind of protection whatever power might have been as in itself shielded by presidential immunity, either directly or as an extension of the necessary exercise of that power. A rhetorical parallel would be saying that hitting someone with a car doesn't mean that possession of the car was illegal. No one's arguing that you illegally had the car, but what you did with it, that was illegal. I would ask if we move on from here, though, that while you take into consideration that selective targeting thing, my point was more to make it so that you didn't show any kind of surprise at the repeated occurrence of that targeting, and instead meant that it should just be folded into your analysis as something that's already seen, so that other patterns can come to the forefront. We're not doing a search for examples of the individual targeting. We're taking it as a modeling theory that such patterns have already been noticed. Now what other patterns can we find simply looking through the events of that couple months with the filters that we were applying, looking for situations where the recorded draft of the strict definition of presidential immunity can be held up against the situation to investigate whether the actions were completely covered or if they started to exceed that strict interpretation of presidential immunity. So I might ask you to do this again depending on how you go through the rest of the examples, because you might have been focusing on looking for examples of individual targeting and not simply allowing that to be something that is noticed while you review in a way that lets me scan for other patterns that might emerge. Yeah, I'm going to ask you to do another scan with those revisions. You know, repeat the methodology, use the draft, etc., but not actually focusing on looking for individual targeting. My poor or incomplete description of what I wanted you to do seems to have led you to start focusing just on that rather than presenting or potentially looking for any situation the draft could apply to, and only then comparing it to our draft set and presenting me with the results of doing so.
G: Yes. I’m going to re-run April–May 2025 from scratch with the broader filter: Trump’s own potentially unlawful conduct first, then compare each incident to the draft, while treating selective targeting as already-known background rather than the search target. I’ll look for any other recurring “ways of exceeding the umbrella” that emerge.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: This broader pass is producing at least two patterns that are not just selective targeting: private monetization of presidential proximity/office, and using uniquely held government information or decision timing in ways that can create private market advantage. I’m also checking a third—accepting external benefits connected to the office—because the Qatar aircraft is structurally different from both.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]
G: Yes. Re-running it that way changes the result. The important clarification is:
The draft is defining the set of conduct that is definitely constitutionally protected by presidential immunity. It is not defining the complementary set of illegal conduct.
So when an act doesn't clearly make it into our closed set, the output should be “candidate for ordinary legal examination”, not “non-immune,” much less “illegal.” Some candidates will have much stronger arguments for inclusion than others.
I also deliberately stopped searching for selective targeting. I treated that as an already-detected pattern and asked what else April–May 2025 exposes.
This one hadn't really surfaced in our previous passes.
At 9:37 a.m. on April 9, Trump posted “THIS IS A GREAT TIME TO BUY!!! DJT”. Several hours later he announced a 90-day pause in most of the newly imposed country-specific tariffs. Markets then surged dramatically—the S&P 500 rose about 9.5%, while numerous tariff-sensitive technology stocks posted enormous gains. Members of Congress requested an investigation into possible insider trading or corruption. Contemporary securities-law experts cautioned that the known facts by themselves were nowhere near enough to establish insider trading; there was no evidence at the time that Trump personally traded based upon the information. citeturn831695search0turn831695search3turn668966news8turn668966news9
For our inquiry, however, we don't have to answer that securities-law question.
The tariff decision itself is governmental action. Communicating economic policy is also perfectly ordinary presidential activity.
But there is no obvious Article II necessity saying:
The President must possess constitutional protection to encourage private persons to transact in financial markets shortly before he personally releases market-moving information unavailable to them.
So the statement is at least a candidate outside our definite-immunity set, irrespective of whether any securities offense could ever be proved.
And this exposes a new pattern:
A President's lawful possession of nonpublic governmental information does not necessarily place personal or discretionary exploitation of the informational advantage created by that knowledge inside the constitutional immunity core.
That's distinct from selective targeting.
The car analogy would be: having the constitutional right to drive the government car doesn't automatically protect whatever you do because you know where the road will be closed tomorrow.
It needs refinement because Presidents plainly must sometimes speak before, during, and after policy changes. But it's a genuinely new boundary candidate.
This becomes even more interesting when we stop viewing it principally as selective advantage.
On April 23, the $TRUMP project announced that the 220 largest holders would receive dinner access to Trump, with enhanced access for the largest holders. Trump personally attended the May 22 event at his private golf club. Trump-affiliated businesses received transaction fees and other financial benefits from the token ecosystem. Some purchasers were foreign nationals, and the purchaser identities were substantially obscured by cryptocurrency wallets. citeturn295979search1turn295979search5turn295979search13
That prompted congressional inquiries alleging possible corruption, foreign-emoluments and other violations. Those were allegations, not adjudications. citeturn295979search4turn295979search8
But our draft produces a cleaner question:
Meeting persons → necessary presidential incident.
doesn't imply
Selling a privately valuable instrument whose ownership determines access to the President → necessary presidential incident.
What caught my attention on this pass is that selection isn't actually the fundamental defect our model detects here.
Imagine Trump had offered the same transaction universally:
Anybody in America who purchases $5 million worth of my token gets dinner with the President.
That would eliminate arbitrary selection.
And yet it still wouldn't create an Article II derivation.
So we've found another supercategory:
An otherwise presidential capacity does not enter the constitutional core merely because the President converts access to that capacity into consideration benefiting himself or an affiliated private enterprise.
That's substantially broader than targeting.
It's also why the later history matters. Trump's 2026 financial disclosure reported more than $1.4 billion in 2025 income from family cryptocurrency ventures, and the conflict became sufficiently persistent that the crypto legislation being negotiated today, September 14, 2026, includes proposed ethics restrictions specifically addressing elected officials' ability to profit from crypto ventures. citeturn843697news10turn843697news0turn843697news1
That doesn't retrospectively establish illegality. It does confirm that the May dinner wasn't an isolated curiosity.
The May 1 announcement is remarkable context. Abu Dhabi-backed MGX announced that it would use USD1, the stablecoin issued by the Trump family's World Liberty Financial, to complete its $2 billion investment in Binance. citeturn668966news7
Subsequent reporting made the foreign-financial relationships much larger and more complicated. By 2026, senators were requesting CFIUS scrutiny of a reported $500 million UAE-connected stake in World Liberty; Trump's financial disclosures meanwhile showed very large income from the family's crypto businesses. citeturn843697news12turn843697news10
But your revised methodology tells us not to stuff that into the immunity experiment merely because it's troubling context.
Where is Trump's particular presidential act E?
Without establishing one, we have:
possible conflict of interest / foreign financial influence / private enrichment
but not yet:
presidential conduct needing immunity classification.
So I would put most of World Liberty itself in a context file, not our candidate set.
That's a useful negative result because it shows the filter is working.
This survives the broader scan extremely well.
In May 2025 Trump personally and publicly advocated accepting Qatar's Boeing 747-8. The administration's proposed structure had Qatar transfer the aircraft for presidential use, with an anticipated eventual transfer to Trump's presidential library. Legal analysts disagreed over exactly how the Foreign Emoluments Clause and federal gift law applied depending upon the ownership structure, congressional authorization and eventual destination. citeturn748883search0turn748883search2
And this issue didn't disappear: the aircraft was ultimately accepted, refurbished, and Trump began using it as Air Force One in July 2026. citeturn843697news6
Our draft handles it without resolving the Emoluments question.
Secure presidential transportation: overwhelmingly plausible necessary incident.
Acquire this particular aircraft: not necessary merely because aircraft are necessary.
Accept this particular aircraft from a foreign sovereign under this particular transfer arrangement: further removed again.
Arrange an eventual private/non-governmental destination connected to the President: further still.
So this is another candidate outside the definite immunity set.
And it gives us a useful principle slightly different from monetization:
A constitutional necessity for resource R does not imply constitutionally protected discretion over every method of acquiring R.
The presidency needs transportation.
That doesn't mean every transaction through which presidential transportation is obtained becomes a constitutionally protected presidential act.
That's analogous to our earlier distinction:
removal authority ≠ immunity for every method of removal.
I didn't count these again as new targeting examples. But looking at them while deliberately ignoring who was targeted revealed another possible pattern.
Consider the law-firm orders. Courts eventually held the challenged orders unconstitutional, including the Susman Godfrey order. The Susman court described a governmental program imposing contract, access and other consequences based upon the firm's clients and positions. citeturn831695search2turn831695search10
Some firms avoided those consequences by entering arrangements involving things such as hiring-policy changes and tens of millions of dollars in promised pro-bono services. citeturn831695search2
Forget for a moment that Trump chose particular enemies.
Something else has occurred:
governmental instrument X has a legal purpose P.
But X is being used to obtain concession Q, where Q isn't what P ordinarily regulates.
That suggests:
Possession of constitutional authority to impose governmental consequence X for constitutional purpose P does not necessarily place within the immunity core the use of X to obtain an unrelated concession Q.
This one needs careful drafting because bargaining is inherent in government. Presidents negotiate treaties; prosecutors negotiate pleas; agencies settle disputes; procurement involves exchanges.
So the problem cannot simply be “government asks for something in return.”
It has to be closer to:
The demanded consideration must bear a legally cognizable relationship to the governmental authority supplying the leverage.
That's a promising rule, but I'd leave it in pencil for now.
Selective targeting is now one pattern among several, rather than the organizing principle.
I'd provisionally add these concepts to the edge-testing apparatus around our closed immunity set:
Selective application — Why this person/entity rather than similarly situated others?
Private monetization — Is a presidential capacity being converted into private economic consideration?
Information/timing exploitation — Is privileged governmental knowledge or control being used in a transaction that isn't necessary to the governmental function?
Acquisition separation — Necessity of a governmental resource/function doesn't establish immunity for every transaction used to obtain it.
Purpose substitution — Is legitimate governmental leverage being deployed to obtain something unrelated to the legal purpose for which the leverage exists?
And I'd keep one distinction very explicit:
These are not definitions of illegality. They are tests for whether an act can be demonstrated to belong to the closed constitutional-immunity set we're trying to construct.
Failure means “membership not established.”
That's all.
The act can subsequently turn out lawful, unlawful, civilly actionable, criminal, unreviewable for some unrelated reason, or factually misunderstood. Our exercise hasn't decided that question.
And I think your correction about candidacy is exactly right. Even something like the crypto dinner shouldn't be labeled by our framework “definitely outside immunity” as though we've already created the final doctrine. It is instead a particularly straightforward candidate for examination outside the closed set, because the chain back to an indispensable Article II function is difficult to identify.
Conversely, an individualized security-clearance decision has a much more readily identifiable route toward the constitutional core, even though particular uses of that authority can still fail our selection/purpose tests.
That is a better description of what we're building: a closed safe harbor, with everything else remaining an unresolved legal universe rather than an automatically forbidden one.
M: I may have spoken too soon. I'm going through your last reply while you prepare the next, and it looks like you were just kind of excited to see an example of what I was talking about rather than focusing on it. So, my bad. My apologies. It's not an excuse, but as a reason, I'm starting to get a little bit of a headache, so my focus isn't as pure as it could have been. Anyway, for the Miles Taylor part, yeah, there's the individual targeting, and you didn't jump as much, so evidently you did things right and I was wrong. So again, mea culpa. But the Miles Taylor thing indicates an area where I'd like to hold it up and say that there is an area of— how would I put it? An area in the neighborhood of libel when you've got the entirety of government broadcasting complete falsehoods about someone on a regular basis in a way that cannot be contradicted either in reality or even in potentia. What I mean is that, like if—I don't know, Marjorie Taylor Greene starts yelling about something, theoretically someone with enough drive and intelligence and whatever could climb into an arena with her and have it out in a way that might clear their name. But when the entirety of the executive agency is broadcasting falsehoods repeatedly, that goes beyond simple targeting and into an area of harassment. There we go. Not just libel, but harassment. I'll read the rest of it and see if I can translate our immunity thing into the capacity to actually take Donald on after he's outside of the White House, legally. But that is another super category if it's possible to define. Because, yeah, accusing someone of being an egregious leaker when they were using public records, that might not be this specific thing, but just there are so many times when Donald has demonstrably yelled things that were completely untrue in a way that anyone else with a microphone that large would have instigated libel action, and then repeating it even after being proven false in the court of law and public opinion. There is an element of harassment there, including this voting crap. When there is a constant assault on someone who controls the method by which you would get a restraining order or something else, there must be something to work with there. Communication. Oh, there we go. Harassment would be part of the individual versus categorical effort, although I'd like to explore that because often he lies about groups as well. Point is, the capacity to communicate is necessary. But again, we get into the area of, you know, being— if he's required to drive, that's one thing. That doesn't mean that running over pedestrians should be considered immune as well. Or even if it's not capable to do that, singling out and targeting particular pedestrians has escaped the umbrella of immunity. And I distinguish between unresolved and being a candidate. Unresolved implies that we're in one of those areas that has been kind of a conversational cul-de-sac so far. Like the differentiation between making an executive order that calls on people to do things that are illegal, and people actually following that executive order. At which point does the illegality end? That's unresolved. The Taylor thing, though, that's a candidate. That is not specifically within the umbrella of immunity that you have drafted. I know it's just a label, but labels are important, particularly when they might be used to quickly refer to things. Yeah, the hypocrisy of ActBlue is indeed an exemplar of the non-universal or even non-categorical targeting. Likely the defense would be something along the lines of, well, we also found that they were doing some things that were also illegal. But first, that wasn't in question, and second, nothing substantive was actually presented that wasn't comparable to the political committees that Donald was involved with. Yeah, and again, we're getting into a situation where there was simply a barrage of explicit bullshit coming from a megaphone, which is not actually, as far as I can tell, explicitly defined and not necessary in terms of implementing ideas. The president, while there's no way to say that they should be restricted from contact with the outside world, either on technical grounds or as a good idea in general, there's no requirement that they be allowed to blast whatever they're thinking at people. It wasn't even possible back when this was formed, which may be part of the reason why it was unaddressed. But at that point, you know, back in 1800, the president could have repeated lies all day and it wouldn't have been broadcast to the nation. My point isn't—my point in this is not to go off on the midnight rants that Donald does, but instead to point out that the nation and the president function perfectly well without constant external communication. It's a demonstration that this constant ability to communicate without cause except to lie is unnecessary. So defending it as being part of the core presidential duties, powers, or necessarily inherited ones is not an automatic win. Donald can shut up and still be president. The fact that he doesn't, therefore, is not automatically within immunity. Another way to put it is this: when Donald has gone silent for a few days, the public has been confused, but it hasn't stopped the rest of government from working, and if you believe his own defenders, it has not stopped him from acting as president. Therefore, any attempt to say that babbling lies somehow connects to required powers of the presidency is demonstrably false. When you respond to that, remember, that argument's also in its first draft, so try and treat it as such. This lying bullshit needs to be stopped somehow, and so far this is the most defensible approach that I can find. So it may not be thoroughly baked, but it's a start. If you're going to argue about it, you're going to need to come up with a better way of incorporating the draft and the fact that Donald constantly bellows lies until people accept them just as a survival instinct. That needs to be fought against. I mean, if we can shape it correctly, then any one of us could say that we have been harassed with complete and utter bullshit for the last ten years through someone who seems to think that because he was elected by a plurality but not a majority, that somehow he has the right to say anything he wants regardless of how true it is. And it might be just a dream, but dreams can be made into reality if we can find a toehold. I don't know. As I'm reading through, it might not have been completely wrong of me to ask you to do this again. You are certainly focusing on the advantage/disadvantage element, which isn't untrue, but it's possibly missing other things that escape protection from the immunity umbrella. The advantage of access is a thing, but also is this emoluments bullshit. I think earlier you said that it can't be shown that Donald earned anything. But, well, in a practical way, we've had multiple discussions, and Donald gets paid every time his ego is inflated. So I know that's not legal. I just needed to say it. I know that's not a legal argument. I mean. But also someone was benefiting, and that person was decided by Donald. So even if he's not getting directly paid, there is a corruption element to it. It ties into the non-categorical advantages or disadvantages. But there's also the element of personal enrichment rather than working for the nation, which would be acceptable if they were separated. But this is using taxpayer money to get people to pay him or someone else, so that he has more leverage, power, or money, or whatever. There's part of the problem. Okay. As president, there are certain things which he gets for free, or gets to use for free, or that he simply doesn't have to pay for. If there's a dinner at the White House, there's not a situation where, you know, he's paying for independent security or whatever. I mean, at the very least, the increase of social security alertness necessary for something that's private is outside of immunity. And then you get into the whole self-enrichment element of it in a way that does not even try and pretend is repaying the extra cost of the Secret Service. This is why I wanted you to look for multiple things. Because this is not also— sorry, this is also not like he can say, well, this is him as a candidate for his next term. He's not allowed a next term. There is no purpose for this meeting that does not involve self-involvement. So for there to be any kind of government association with it and subsidizing of the effort with no takeaway, that right there is fraud. For the record, I'm trying not to touch on emoluments because I already have talked through almost the entirety of that. And my opinion is that the best solution would be for the Democrats in 2026 or 2028, if they have to, to pass not a new law, but simply emoluments enforcement in a way that's called like a finish line bill, where it doesn't matter what they were doing if it was made during their presidency, outside of a few specific instances like a book advance or whatever. Any money made by a president outside of their salary or items owned before becoming president were confiscated to the government, as that was the entirety of it and their job for that entire time. So any self-enrichment was in fact the enrichment of the United States, so it belongs to the United States. No new law would need to be passed. It's an enforcement of the emoluments clause. And for Donald, the argument could be made that given the number of times that his rhetoric implied that he was America, well then there should be no problem with America taking the money that he's making. I know I'm being a little glib about that. The point is, though, that if emoluments come up and I seem to be casual about its involvement as compared to other elements of finance, there's a reason for that. Yeah, with the World Liberty Financial thing, this is one of the reasons for the emoluments thing being kind of off on its own. It's one thing if the president owns a company. Theoretically, they could function as being the owner while acting on behalf of the country. But a company that doesn't get actually started either in existence or in actual functioning until after the presidency has been obtained, that's when it starts getting questionable. If just in that doing so either requires the resources of someone who should be focused on the country, or implies that some resources of the country have been used in order to allow for the president to do both at the same time. The emoluments thing would solve all of this, though. It's not a question of immunity at this point. It is literally already illegal, explicitly outside of any consideration of the immunity clause, of the immunity set that we're discussing, the umbrella. It is explicitly illegal and really doesn't need much more discussion at that point. Yeah, okay. I'm not quite as worried that I called for a complete duplication of effort when I see how you reacted to the 747 thing. That has little, if nothing, to do with the individualized targeting that you were focused on, but it still is something that needs to be held up to the draft. I'm not sure if it breaks immunity, though, upon first scan. The intention to take it with him, that would be an emoluments thing. The necessity of travel is one thing, but it could be said that it exceeds take care because it was redundant and incomplete replacement, with no substantive benefit and a demonstrated insufficiency over the last month or two. Check it out and basically you'll see that evidently it does not function as Air Force One simply because it is incapable of being used as a secure point for the president in the way that Air Force One is intended. It's a financial albatross, doubly so because, if I remember correctly, the actual defensive functional Air Force One has been shadowing him when he travels in the Qatar 747, in case it actually is needed defensively. So it was not a replacement. Any statement that it could be was a lie. And subsequent implementation has demonstrated that it is not even a substitute, but rather has doubled operational costs, because in order to fulfill the parts of the presidential duties which require transport, which is perhaps arguable to the degree of having an Air Force One, it goes beyond that and into albatross levels. Not because of any advantage, except that Donald likes gold things. It has not been supplied for free because there have been demonstrable advantages gained by Qatar that have personally affected Donald, but that's the emoluments thing. The immunity part that we're talking about, though, this was personal choice rather than following explicit guidelines without cause, and with multiple failings in areas that were not unforeseen by people who critiqued the entirety of the activity in the first place. In fact, the only time I've seen any surprise about the current situation from various commenters has been realizing that Air Force One, the real one, was shadowing the Qatar 747 because the Qatar 747 was incapable of fulfilling the role of Donald's defensive bunker in the sky. So it does not do anything like replace Air Force One. Instead, it is Donald's toy that is brought along with Air Force One whenever he wants to go out and do the Cheeto version of water skiing. It's showing off. It is not providing any advantage to himself, the government, or the country. Okay, I've made it to your second pass, and yes, it looks like I was actually right. I think this entire message has kind of documented how I approach things. First, I take the blame for screwing up because it seems like I might be wrong. Then as I find out I'm right, there's not so much a sense of gloating as a realization that there's more still to do. Anyway. Yeah, that's a demonstration of inappropriate use of communications methods that are not necessarily covered as an extension of the requirements to act as president. And even if it could be demonstrated that such a megaphone was necessary, it certainly is not to the degree of personal claims which are either untrue, or self-serving, or both. A capitalist society requires a government uninvolved in manipulating things, and even if you could demonstrate that he got no personal gain out of it, it was demonstrable interference by a government figure. I've been using car crashes for metaphors. Well, my best-case scenario would be equivalent to someone blasting an air horn in someone's ear and then claiming that they weren't responsible for the car itself. And that's if he didn't actually do anything about it, and we're going to look and see and discover that, oh, hey, he's been doing so much trading, an amount of trading not related to what he had done in the past. Basically, it was: he would do trading and an announcement in order, and then try and claim that it had nothing to do with each other. That again gets to the emoluments part, but the manipulation is outside of any kind of core element. Yeah, and your way of saying it, that the president must possess constitutional protection to encourage private persons, etc., etc. Yeah, that's another way of coming at the same idea. There's no explicit or implicit duty or power which requires him to be able to instantly shout at the entire nation at all, let alone in ways that are demonstrably interfering with society in a way that's illegal, and which has, as time has gone on, shown more and more was designed to actually manipulate his personal items. The informational asymmetry, that's an important thing too, but I'm getting to a point where I'm hitting overload and might have to come back later. So don't take that as a brush-off of the concept, simply that I'm going to have to review that later on when I ask you to try doing this for another couple months. So don't relegate it to the bottom of the token list. Just, you know, keep a thumb on that along with the other ideas, so that when I have got the head space and energy to address it, it hasn't disappeared. As I'm reading through the USD1 stablecoin thing, that might be worth reviewing again, simply because efforts have been made since then by Donald and his family to establish some sort of crypto bank or something like that. And while there's no evidence, my, like, dark horse two-dollar bet candidate for the recent promise to give everyone five thousand dollars if the Republicans win has been that what he intends to do, whether it would actually work or not, is to establish the bank, give everyone five thousand dollars in the stablecoin thing in an effort to give himself leverage over some sort of US standardized cryptocurrency. And if that sounds stupid, I ask you to look at some of the other things that he has advocated and tell me that it's out of character. Its actual capacity of being done is beside the point when it comes to this schmuck. The point is, though, that this is private manipulation of information asymmetry, not just information, but leverage asymmetry. Donald has not succeeded at anything he personally did until recently, and the difference between then and now has been that he's been able to push against the levers which previously made for level playing fields. At the very least, this is private discrimination using public power. Again, a little bit low on energy to get fully into that, but I believe that to be important beyond what you were noticing. Let's see, we just talked about the Qatar aircraft. The law firm and Harvard pressure. What comes out from underneath the immunity umbrella is the specific targeting. I don't know if the likely purpose of it can be actually litigated. The belief, not just of myself but a lot of commentators, seems to circle around the idea that the point was to get everything under Donald's thumb. That the specific targeting was intended to undermine resistance and to distract from the idea that it was individual targeting rather than categorical targeting. Basically, it was categorical targeting, not as a declaration, but instead through mafia-like efforts to intimidate, and with mafia-like extraction of promises which have no legal basis to exist, like agreements to do work or something, which have no reason to actually be executed except to avoid punishment in the specific, which we've already shown is completely wrong. I'm surprised that there's nothing in here about the expansion or use of ICE, although that might be because it's coming up later. I'd appreciate it if you could try writing down somewhere— well, no, not that. Try and maintain the existence of your document, or refer to the one that you gave me to download later on. I don't want you to lose that. It seems to be a good draft to be working against, and uploading it is always such a pain in the ass when it shouldn't be necessary. If it is necessary, though, tell me later on if we keep moving on. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your response to my review of both versions of what you got me for April and May.
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G: Your review actually sharpens the model in several places. I also checked several of the factual developments you mentioned rather than assuming that my earlier April–May research was still complete.
The first thing I'd change is terminology exactly as you suggest:
CORE / DERIVED CORE = membership established by our draft.
CANDIDATE = the challenged conduct is not established as belonging to that closed immunity set, so ordinary legal examination isn't foreclosed by this model. This says nothing yet about whether a cause of action exists or succeeds.
UNRESOLVED = we cannot presently determine whether the conduct belongs to the closed set because the constitutional derivation itself remains indeterminate.
That makes Miles Taylor a candidate, not “unresolved,” unless a particular component—say, an actual national-security investigation based on genuine classified-information concerns—has its own plausible derivation.
There's an important factual point strengthening the question you're raising. The April 9 presidential memorandum doesn't merely say investigate whether Taylor leaked classified material. It declares as fact that Taylor “illegally published classified conversations,” calls him an “egregious leaker,” says his book contains fabricated stories, raises possible Espionage Act violations, and then directs executive agencies to take action against him and associates. citeturn0search0turn0search73
That gives us something considerably more precise than Donald said something nasty.
I wouldn't formulate the emerging rule as presidential lies aren't immune, because that immediately crashes into difficult First Amendment, defamation, official-duty and evidentiary questions. Your deeper observation is better:
Communicative capacity and communicative content are separate transactions.
A President necessarily needs some ability to communicate to execute the office. It doesn't follow that every communicative act by the person occupying the presidency is therefore constitutionally indispensable.
That's another instance of our car rule:
Necessity of possessing/operating the instrument does not establish immunity for every use of the instrument.
Your empirical argument about presidential silence helps, but I'd phrase it more narrowly. We don't have to prove that presidential mass communication is unnecessary. Some presidential communications plainly are necessary—orders, diplomacy, reporting to Congress, emergency information, explanations of administration policy.
Instead:
The immunity derivation must connect the particular communication to a presidential function, not merely establish that presidents generally communicate.
That handles defamatory or harassing communications much more cleanly. If a President says falsely defamatory X about private citizen P, “presidents communicate with the public” doesn't establish X's membership in CORE. X becomes a candidate. Whether defamation law, presidential immunity doctrine, the First Amendment, limitations, damages, etc. ultimately permit litigation is downstream.
Repeated government amplification could create additional legal theories, but I wouldn't yet add HARASSMENT as a constitutional boundary rule. I would put it in our candidate-detection apparatus and see whether later incidents reveal a generalizable structure.
I agree with your conceptual correction: targeting isn't the deepest problem.
Suppose everyone could buy exactly the same access.
The selection would then be perfectly categorical:
Buy X → receive presidential access Y.
Yet our immunity derivation would still fail unless we could establish why the presidency requires the President to convert presidential availability/proximity into consideration benefiting a private enterprise.
That gives us a much cleaner rule:
Private-purpose conversion: A constitutionally protected presidential resource, capacity, privilege, access, information, or instrument does not automatically protect its conversion to a substantially private purpose.
That covers something selective-application doesn't.
And notice that this doesn't require personal enrichment. If President P used presidential machinery to enrich unrelated friend F, the constitutional membership problem would remain even if P received zero dollars.
That's stronger than making everything depend upon emoluments.
The Constitution does contain an explicit Foreign Emoluments prohibition: a federal officeholder may not, without congressional consent, accept an emolument, office or title from a foreign state. But a future Congress couldn't simply declare all outside presidential income retroactively forfeited merely by calling that “enforcement” of the existing clause. The constitutional prohibition and the remedy are different legal questions.
So I wouldn't put all income beyond salary → property of United States into this immunity model without separate statutory/constitutional analysis.
That's actually consistent with the methodology you've been insisting upon: don't let a legitimate legal category expand beyond its defined membership just because the proposed result seems related to its purpose.
You were substantially right about the later operational problem.
In July 2026, during the Turkey trip, the Secret Service recommended that Trump return aboard the older VC-25A Air Force One, rather than the Qatar-derived aircraft. Reporting says the older aircraft had secure communications and sophisticated defensive capabilities that the new aircraft lacked or had not yet received. citeturn0search3
More recent reporting confirms that Trump nevertheless began using the Qatar-derived aircraft in July and that it is scheduled to undergo another roughly 60-day period of security upgrades beginning in October. citeturn0news66
One detail I cannot presently substantiate strongly enough is the broader claim that the old VC-25 routinely shadows the Qatar aircraft on its trips. I found evidence of the old aircraft being substituted when the threat environment required it, and reporting about missing defensive capabilities, but not enough reliable evidence to turn routine shadowing into a fact.
That distinction actually makes the immunity experiment cleaner.
We have:
F = President requires secure transportation.
A derived constitutional incident of F can plausibly include acquiring and operating appropriate transportation.
But that doesn't automatically establish:
Q = President personally chooses a particular donated aircraft notwithstanding materially relevant operational deficiencies.
Q therefore becomes a CANDIDATE, not because it was a bad procurement decision, but because the constitutional derivation becomes increasingly attenuated once the asserted necessity doesn't explain the transaction.
A terrible aircraft choice could still be immunized governmental judgment. Bad judgment alone doesn't eject an act from CORE.
The more interesting question is whether Q can independently be characterized as an exercise of the derived transportation function—or whether the evidence eventually establishes some materially different private transaction. That's exactly where the candidate concept helps us avoid prematurely deciding it.
You also correctly noticed that this isn't merely an informational-asymmetry problem.
Trump publicly posted that it was a “great time to buy” less than four hours before announcing the tariff pause that caused an enormous market rally. That chronology is established. citeturn0search4
What we don't presently have from that alone is proof that Trump himself traded in anticipation of the announcement. So I'd resist folding personal securities trading into the factual predicate unless we establish it separately.
But our immunity test doesn't need it.
Presidential tariff decision: potentially protected governmental activity.
Announcement of tariff decision: potentially protected governmental communication.
Public encouragement to make market transactions before disclosure of the forthcoming governmental decision: CANDIDATE.
And this gives us another refinement:
Temporal linkage doesn't propagate immunity backward.
If protected presidential act P₂ occurs at 1 p.m., an earlier act P₁ doesn't become protected merely because P₁ concerned information about P₂.
That's important for the informational-asymmetry idea we're keeping our thumb on.
You were also right about the “crypto bank” recollection.
In January 2026, a World Liberty entity applied to the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency for a national trust-bank charter, specifically to expand USD1 stablecoin operations. citeturn0search5 And as of today, September 14, the congressional crypto legislation is still wrestling explicitly with ethics restrictions involving officeholders' crypto businesses; Reuters reports that the latest Senate text contains strengthened restrictions concerning public officials profiting from crypto ventures. citeturn0news61
Your $5,000-stablecoin hypothesis remains speculation; I found no evidence connecting Trump's recent proposed $5,000 “dividend” to USD1. So I'd preserve that only as a hypothesis to test if evidence appears, not incorporate it into the model.
But leverage asymmetry is worth preserving independently of that hypothesis.
I think you're pointing toward:
A President's possession of regulatory, informational, enforcement, procurement, or policy leverage doesn't itself make use of that leverage for a private purpose part of the presidential function.
That's broader than information asymmetry and potentially more important.
Your intuition about chronology is basically right. The particularly consequential cluster involving Trump personally + ICE enforcement + military authority + state/local opposition really explodes in June 2025, immediately after the April–May window we've just examined.
On June 7 Trump personally signed the memorandum federalizing at least 2,000 California National Guard personnel over Governor Newsom's objection; two days later the administration deployed another 2,000 Guard personnel and 700 Marines. citeturn0search2turn0search74 Trump subsequently publicly called for immigration enforcement to be expanded particularly in Los Angeles, Chicago and New York. citeturn0search6
That's going to be an unusually valuable next test because unlike the crypto dinner or Taylor:
Commander in Chief → absolutely explicit CORE.
Take Care → explicit constitutional duty.
federal immigration enforcement → unquestionably governmental.
And yet the disputed conduct includes domestic military deployment, statutory predicates, federalism, selective geographic enforcement, law-enforcement activity by military personnel, and presidential direction of enforcement priorities.
In other words, June gives us cases where we cannot solve the membership question merely by saying the starting instrument isn't core. The starting instrument unquestionably is.
That's exactly the stress test this draft needs.
Finally, I haven't lost sight of the original draft or the rules we've accumulated. Within this conversation I can continue using it as our working baseline. If we eventually reach a point where the earlier text is no longer reliably available, I'll tell you rather than silently reconstructing it and pretending it's identical.
And given the headache/overload you mentioned, I think this is actually a good stopping boundary: we've now processed your April–May review without opening June's rather enormous can of worms.
M: With the harassment thing from Taylor and everyone else that Donald has specifically and repeatedly targeted with an insult, or more specifically, a demonstrable lie. It might be useful to incorporate the fact that this was not an attempt to communicate with the target of the harassment. That's an important aspect here. This was not someone accusing to the person themselves or a court of law some kind of problem. This is a law being told to everyone except for the person who can't defend themselves. There we go. The ability to defend against it is asymmetrical by nature if it is allowed to be considered an item underneath the immunity umbrella. As a comparative situation, look at how Donald has dealt with the woman—I can't remember her name—but the one who he defamed while he wasn't president and has been trying to get into federal court, not because he didn't do it, but because then he could try to exercise some sort of immunity, which itself demonstrates his desire not for protection but for a weapon that allows him to do illegal things, or at the very least prevents him from being held liable for them, or otherwise examined about them. A court has multiple times found him guilty or upheld the ruling that he was harassing her, and that was after he owed them millions of dollars. Yet in his current situation, he is doing the same thing to people daily without any chance of repercussion, and it has not given him the ability to stop. He has continued. He is harassing people, and that is not just because of what he's saying, but because in a parallel situation where he was explicitly not under immunity, he has been found liable for something like harassment by doing exactly the same thing. The question isn't whether or not he has verbally attacked someone. It's that it has been demonstrably untrue and repeated on a megaphone that no one has a chance to defend themselves against. There is no way that this should be considered a viable outcome of the intent of the Constitutional Congress, just like prima facie. The capacity of a president to undermine the entire life of a single citizen for no reason except for personal pique is exactly the opposite of anything you could find on any related topic in the Federalist Papers. The king's capacity to simply destroy someone's life could be said to be part of the reason that America rebelled. So the ability of an American president to do the same is a disgusting interpretation of the intent of the founders. See, this is why I said to not put down at the bottom of the list some of the stuff that I'm glossing over due to energy. That little bit pulled some extra energy out of me, but I just feel that much more drained, to the point that I'm having to push myself to finish the rest of this message. You can drop discussion of the emoluments idea unless something really useful or really concept-breaking pops up. That's its own issue, and enforcement of a bill that could not be completed while Donald's in power simply because he didn't let it pass, simply because he vetoed it, would be different from setting up the law and instead simply having a ruling about whether or not the emoluments clause was violated. I'm not sure if there's any kind of... what's the word I'm looking for, or phrase? Time limit, I guess, on breaking the emoluments clause, but at that point you've broke the law. The capacity to enforce it does not say anything about whether or not you are guilty of it. I know that it would require some effort, but at the very least this is a unique situation. The idea of saying that there's precedent is ridiculous in itself. Implementation of enforcement of a law that has never needed enforcement because people understood it was illegal is a novelty. Trying to say that this has never been done before is easily met by the idea that no one has added so much to their personal wealth while draining the wealth of the country before. Even if, with the 747, even if Air Force One does not constantly shadow the President, the fact that it needs to be considered as foreshadowing at all implies the vulnerability of the Qatar 747. In fact, it demonstrates why it's such a bad idea. It means that on some occasions where it is defined as being quote-unquote dangerous, double the operating expenses are necessary, at least in order to have the 747 shadow, or sorry, to have Air Force One shadow the Qatar 747. But it also means that in other situations, even though it is more vulnerable, Donald regularly travels without the security, thus putting himself and the well-being of the entire nation into more danger than necessary because he wanted to fly in a gold plane. To the point that actual surprises that Air Force One could weather cannot be dealt with by the Qatar 747. He has chosen to make himself, and through it the stability of America, less secure because he liked shiny things. The five-thousand-dollar hypothesis is exactly that, but I notice that you're not presenting me with any demonstration that Donald would never do that because he's not the kind of guy who would try to use vapor coin in order to say that he paid a debt, when instead he was entrenching himself more firmly in the financial well-being of a country who is subject currently and vulnerable to any manipulations he might make to further that embedding. All right, we'll leave the ice stuff alone and pick up on other ideas later, because so far we've developed a few concepts that aren't quite as clear of a supercategory as that non-categorical application of power for personal reasons. But it sounds like we both have a fair awareness of concepts that could be developed into categories that exceed the immunity umbrella.
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G: Yes. I think you've found a refinement of the communication problem that is considerably stronger than simply “the President shouldn't be immune for lying.” I checked the Taylor/Carroll comparison because there is a surprisingly direct legal connection.
With Miles Taylor, the government's April 2025 memorandum didn't merely communicate an administration position. It publicly asserted that Taylor had “illegally published classified conversations,” characterized his conduct as potentially violating the Espionage Act, and then ordered executive agencies to investigate him and suspend clearances. citeturn0search0 Whatever the ultimate truth of those accusations, that's importantly different from communicating to Taylor that the government suspects him of misconduct and giving him a forum in which the accusation can be contested.
I think your asymmetry concept therefore deserves to be preserved, but I'd formulate the draft principle cautiously:
Public-accusation asymmetry: The President's necessary constitutional capacity to communicate does not, by itself, establish immunity-set membership for using presidential communications to make damaging factual accusations against identifiable persons. Membership requires an additional connection between the particular public accusation and a constitutionally protected presidential function; the general proposition that “Presidents communicate” is insufficient.
Then add repetition and inability to answer on comparable terms as evidence relevant to whether the activity has become a personal campaign rather than performance of the underlying governmental function.
That keeps us from having to invent a constitutional tort called presidential harassment. Existing defamation, retaliation, due-process, First Amendment, abuse-of-process or other law can supply the legal question later. Our draft only says: don't put the communication into the immunity set merely because it came out of the President's mouth.
The woman you were remembering is E. Jean Carroll. The comparison is even closer to your argument than you recalled.
Trump's 2019 statements about Carroll occurred while he was President. For years he attempted to have the United States substituted for him under the Westfall Act on the theory that he had been acting within the scope of presidential employment. DOJ eventually declined to certify that proposition. After Trump returned to office in 2025, Trump and the government again sought substitution; the Second Circuit rejected it. citeturn0search47
Separately, the jury's $83.3 million defamation judgment was upheld on appeal in September 2025. That award included $65 million in punitive damages, arising partly from the conclusion that deterrence was necessary given Trump's continued defamatory statements after the earlier proceedings. citeturn0news46
So Carroll gives our draft something approaching an experimental control:
same human being + enormous public communications platform + statements concerning an identifiable individual + claimed relationship to presidency.
Yet the legal system did not simply accept:
President spoke publicly → presidential communication → protected presidential activity.
That's useful evidence for our membership model. It doesn't automatically resolve Taylor or anybody else, but it severely weakens the proposition that public presidential communication as such belongs to the protected core.
And there's an additional distinction you've identified that I think matters:
Government accusation within adjudicative machinery:
We believe P committed X; here is the proceeding in which that proposition will be tested.
versus
Government accusation through presidential megaphone:
P committed X.
The latter isn't transformed into adjudication merely because executive machinery can subsequently be activated against P.
That distinction may become important when we eventually examine the Comey-type cases.
Your argument becomes much stronger if the draft doesn't require us to decide truth whenever Trump says something contested.
Instead we can create an evidentiary ladder without making it an immunity ranking:
Contested factual assertion → doesn't tell us much.
Assertion contradicted by established government records/evidence → stronger candidate.
Assertion maintained after authoritative factual adjudication against it → considerably cleaner candidate for examining whether the subsequent repetition serves any necessary governmental function.
Repeated assertion about an identifiable person combined with governmental punishment/investigation of that person → now we separately examine communication and activation of government machinery.
Taylor is interesting because Trump's memorandum itself combines those last two types of governmental conduct: public factual accusation and direction of executive consequences. citeturn0search0
That avoids making “Donald lies” our legal criterion. The criterion is externally testable.
On the Qatar aircraft, I agree with one correction to my previous treatment and disagree with one inference.
The fact that the older VC-25A had to be substituted in circumstances requiring capabilities the Qatar-derived aircraft lacked is evidence that the newer aircraft was not functionally equivalent to the complete Air Force One capability. That's relevant to our necessary-function analysis.
But even a catastrophically foolish procurement choice could still be presidential/governmental conduct. Our closed-set theory can't use competence as the boundary, because that would recreate exactly the judicial sliding scale of “appropriate” that started this whole conversation.
So I think the proper test remains:
Did the particular acquisition/acceptance transaction derive from an immune presidential function?
rather than:
Was the aircraft good enough to justify buying/accepting it?
Its inadequacy can be evidence against a claimed necessity rationale, but shouldn't itself remove immunity-set membership.
That distinction seems important enough to preserve.
On the $5,000/USD1 hypothesis, you're also correct about what I was not saying. I wasn't saying Trump wouldn't do that. I was saying we presently lack evidence that this particular proposal is connected to USD1.
Those are radically different statements.
For our modeling purposes:
H₁: proposed $5,000 payment eventually becomes connected to USD1/World Liberty
can remain a testable hypothesis.
Present evidence: not established.
If evidence eventually appears, then we'd run it through the leverage/private-purpose rules we've developed. Until then it shouldn't migrate from hypothesis into factual premise.
That preserves exactly the distinction you've repeatedly asked me to maintain: absence of evidence for H isn't evidence that ¬H is true.
And I think we've now accumulated several candidate boundary concepts without needing to force them prematurely into one grand doctrine:
Selective application — legitimate instrument, personally/non-categorically selected target.
Public-accusation asymmetry — necessary communicative capacity doesn't automatically immunize damaging factual accusations against identifiable persons.
Private-purpose conversion — governmental resource/capacity converted toward substantially private ends.
Information asymmetry — privileged governmental knowledge used in activity not necessarily derived from the governmental function producing that knowledge.
Leverage asymmetry — uniquely presidential governmental leverage used toward an objective not supplied by the underlying authority.
Acquisition separation — necessity of resource/function R doesn't automatically constitutionalize every transaction used to obtain R.
Purpose substitution — governmental authority granted for P is used as leverage to obtain Q, where Q lacks the necessary relationship to P.
And your car metaphor actually provides a remarkably economical umbrella for all of them:
Establishing that the President is constitutionally entitled to possess and drive the car does not establish constitutional immunity for every destination, passenger, cargo, collision, threat, commercial use, or person deliberately struck with it. Each disputed use still needs its own defensible connection to the constitutional reason he was given the car.
That's much closer to what I now understand this project to be doing. We're not constructing a catalog of things presidents aren't allowed to do. We're trying to prevent membership leakage—where an indisputably protected presidential power gets treated as though everything performed using that power automatically enters the same protected set.
And I agree that we should leave ICE/June alone tonight. We've got several newly identified concepts that aren't as mature as the selective-application rule yet; forcing them into final definitions while you're running out of energy would probably make the model worse rather than better.
M: One complication, which on one hand demonstrates the whole megaphone thing and is financially weird and worth investigating, but on the other hand may complicate things because of its separation. I'm going to say this once because I fucking hate the corruption of the language by the name of the thing, but his Truth Social app is potentially strengthening for actual litigation, but also a complication. It's privately owned, but it's privately owned by the president, and its purpose is to communicate. I know that I've examined some of the numbers involved here, and you could probably do a better job of refreshing yourself than I could in trying to explain it. But basically, it has value that it shouldn't have. It operates poorly. Its interface is broken, and its main existence is to let Donald shout lies and AI slop at people, in practice if not in its mission statement. The possession of the president of a privately owned national communications method that he uses outside of the government and, in fact, avoids using the government to communicate at all personally demonstrates a degree of avoidance or contempt in a manner that would be different than if he was just using Twitter or whatever. Again, I refuse to call it X more than once because Elon is a dipshit and the whole thing is just kind of getting to the point of the name Band-Aid, in that people who wouldn't understand what you meant about X still know what you mean when you say Twitter. And I just realized, if Truth Social is private, well, that shows that he is doing that privately as a personal thing. So the whole libel shit should be much easier to work with, if it ever reaches the point that you can demonstrate that he is not immune to everything. Communications of the president through a privately owned method implies that he is functioning at that point not as a president, but as a private citizen. No, that isn't necessarily true in legal logic, but in the rhetorical world that legal things use to define stuff, it's as good an explanation as any and can be used to change an area of the legal world which is currently in flux in a way that allows for modification without it being something that involves stooping down to their level of manipulating what the language means. Here's a parallel. If a public figure has a private number and makes a call to that number, from that number, or gives someone that private number, is the implication that they are functioning as a public citizen or public representative? Or does it mean that at that point they have taken off the public mask and are functioning as a private person? Extend that, and it doesn't matter that the private communication is being, is capable of being viewed by anyone who downloads the app. The action has been taken to use a private possession to communicate. Like I said, on one hand that complicates the idea of using his tweets as evidence, but on the other hand it opens him up completely to the idea that he could not be functioning as president, no matter what he said, because he was using his private number. There were perfectly viable methods for him to communicate through the government, and he chose instead to use his own. He would have to declare somehow and demonstrate that his company belonged to the nation in order to make the argument that therefore his functioning there was private. And any argument about how well in practice he carried out a bunch of government business through that private thing does not make it any more of a publicly owned or operated or otherwise recognized public entity than if the person using their private number were to call people who work for them. It doesn't change the ownership, and it's still his private company. And so it's private communication, not a public one. There's a perfectly acceptable substitute that he chose not to use, and which might have been able to extend that umbrella of immunity a little bit further. But he chose not to do that because he wanted to have something with his name on it. And I would look for the area between competence and— sorry, I would look for the differentiation between incompetence and foreseen incompetence as a place to start separating things for the Qatar 747. This wasn't a case of people not seeing things coming. You can find all kinds of pieces about how there was no way to actually get the 747 from Qatar up and running as a viable 747 substitute for Air Force One, well before it was actually part of Donald's stable. It goes from being a question of competence to willful disregard at that point. Willful disregard that also incorporates the idea of declaring that it wasn't going to cost anything, when anyone who has ever owned any vehicle knows that maintenance alone is sufficient to approach with caution when making an investment. So saying that it was free was simply ignoring the reality that things cost money. And that's not a question of competence. That's deciding to stay ignorant, even as everyone else yells how stupid it is.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]
G: I think the Truth Social complication is real, but I would change one step in your inference. I also checked the Qatar-aircraft chronology, and your foreseen deficiency distinction has considerably stronger factual support than I realized.
The proposition I'd reject is:
privately owned communications channel → necessarily private presidential conduct.
There's a fairly strong legal reason. Courts have already dealt with the inverse problem: government officials can conduct official business through privately owned accounts/platforms. The Supreme Court's social-media cases focus substantially on whether the official possessed governmental authority and purported to exercise it, rather than simply who owned the communications infrastructure.
And with Trump specifically, his first-term Twitter account was treated by the Second Circuit as having been used as an official presidential communications channel even though Twitter was obviously privately owned. That case became moot when he left office, so it didn't become a permanent Supreme Court holding, but it's powerful evidence against making ownership of the communications medium dispositive.
So I wouldn't write:
Truth Social post = private act.
I'd write:
Use of a personally controlled private communications platform does not establish official status merely because the speaker is President. The particular communication must independently derive its official character from its content, function, context, or use of governmental authority.
That shifts the presumption in the direction you're interested in without creating an easily defeated bright-line rule.
And Truth Social gives us additional facts Twitter didn't.
Trump isn't merely using someone else's private telephone. He has a substantial financial relationship to the company that owns the telephone system. Trump Media is the corporate parent of Truth Social, and Trump's financial interests in Trump Media have remained economically significant. So presidential attention can potentially benefit an asset connected to him. That creates a second analytical dimension completely independent of defamation:
Was this presidential communication?
and separately:
Was presidential communicative activity being used to increase the value/utility of a privately beneficial communications property?
Those questions shouldn't collapse into each other.
There's an even stranger recent development: reporting this week describes Truth Social offering a $100,000-per-month subscription product providing early access to certain posts, while Trump continues using the platform for presidential/policy communications. citeturn0news63
That is potentially extremely useful to our model because it sharpens the transaction enormously:
If information derives its value from presidential status, but differential access to that information is monetized through a privately beneficial platform, what exactly is the constitutional function being immunized?
We shouldn't answer that before examining the details. But it is an excellent CANDIDATE, and it's much cleaner analytically than merely saying Trump owns the site.
Suppose Trump posts:
“Country X attacked an American ship. I have ordered the Navy to respond.”
Truth Social's private ownership doesn't plausibly make that non-presidential. The communicative content is directly connected to an Article II function.
Now suppose he posts a demonstrably false personal factual accusation against Citizen P.
The immunity argument cannot simply be:
President → communicating → therefore official.
Our test asks:
What constitutionally necessary presidential function required this particular communication?
If none can be established, it becomes a CANDIDATE.
If it is repeatedly directed against P, after contrary evidence or adjudication, that repetition can become relevant evidence that we're looking at a continuing personal course of conduct rather than execution of a governmental communicative function.
And the private platform adds another piece of evidence. It doesn't decide the question, but the government didn't select the medium, doesn't own the medium, and the President has a private economic relationship with the medium.
That makes the private-number analogy useful evidentially rather than categorically.
This is where I'd modify our draft substantially in response to your argument.
The contemporaneous record is unusually good.
On May 12, 2025, before the aircraft was accepted and long before Trump started flying on it, current and former military, defense and Secret Service officials were already saying that bringing it to full Air Force One standards would require extensive reconstruction. The Washington Post reported estimates that full conversion could take years and billions, potentially requiring substantial security requirements to be waived to get it operating during Trump's term. citeturn0search0
Reuters reported essentially the same problem on May 15: the aircraft lacked major defensive and communications capabilities and might require fighter escorts unless extensively upgraded. citeturn0news64
NPR subsequently reported that experts expected hundreds of millions in conversion expenses despite Trump's repeated description of the aircraft as “free.” citeturn0search7
And there's something even closer to your formulation. By late May, reporting said Air Force officials who inspected the aircraft had concluded that it was poorly maintained, couldn't carry the President in its existing condition, and potentially required approximately $1.5 billion to meet the contemplated requirements—although those estimates depended considerably upon what standards ultimately would be imposed or waived. citeturn0search2
Then reality supplied an unusually useful subsequent test. Trump began flying aboard the converted aircraft in July 2026, but during the Turkey trip the older presidential aircraft was used instead when the threat environment required capabilities the converted aircraft lacked. And the converted aircraft is scheduled for another roughly two-month security-upgrade period this fall. citeturn0news58
So yes:
unexpectedly bad procurement judgment
is importantly different from
proceeding despite identified deficiencies intrinsic to the asserted governmental justification.
But I still wouldn't call the latter automatically outside immunity.
I think we've discovered another candidate detector:
If conduct E is claimed to derive constitutional protection from necessary function F, but contemporaneous evidence known before E establishes that E doesn't actually perform F as represented, then the asserted derivation from F requires an independent explanation.
That's much safer than:
knowingly stupid decision → no immunity.
And it fits the aircraft remarkably well.
The argument for membership was essentially:
President needs presidential transportation → this supplies presidential transportation → acquisition therefore derives from presidential function.
But if decision-makers already knew:
this aircraft cannot perform significant portions of the asserted presidential-transportation function without extensive additional expenditure, waived requirements, supplemental assets, or later modification,
then “presidential transportation” no longer completes the derivation by itself.
Something else has to explain why this transaction belongs inside CORE.
That doesn't prove corruption, vanity, emoluments violations, waste, or illegality. It simply prevents necessity from functioning as a magic word.
And that distinction connects surprisingly neatly back to the linguistic problem that began this entire project:
A court shouldn't replace an externally testable constitutional derivation with “well, this seems sufficiently presidential to us.”
We keep demanding the type signature.
Article II function → necessary incident → particular act.
Truth Social and the Qatar aircraft attack that chain from opposite directions. Truth Social asks whether something performed by the President is actually presidential merely because he performed it. The aircraft asks whether something related to a genuine presidential necessity is protected merely because the administration attached the necessity's label to it.
Neither question requires us to decide yet whether the underlying conduct was illegal. They ask the narrower question we've been trying to isolate:
Has membership in the closed immunity set actually been demonstrated?
And I think contradicted necessity deserves to stay beside information asymmetry on the “keep a thumb on this” list rather than being promoted to a finished rule yet. We need to see whether it recurs in later months before deciding whether it's genuinely a supercategory or merely a very good way of analyzing this aircraft.
M: Isn't there a presidential Twitter account, like the one that was transferred from Obama to Donald to Biden and back to Donald? Look into his entire life and tell me when Donald has had his name on something that he hasn't claimed was his and his alone. So if his username is Donald instead of POTUS or whatever, making the claim that communication was somehow publicly and governmentally defended becomes a lot less capable. There's so much more evidence that putting his name on something, or even requiring his name on something, despite being able to much more easily leave it alone. I'm sorry, I lost the thread of that sentence, but the point is he puts his name on shit because he wants to mark it like a dog pissing on things. Look up the JFK Center situation where they made him take his name down, and he has made sure that the removal was covered and has been threatening to knock the damn thing down if he doesn't get to put his name somewhere. From that alone, you could tell that he should not be president because the president is supposed to be working for the nation, not themselves. You don't have to comment on that. That was just me venting. But the point is, there is so much evidence to persuade a court that Donald puts his name on anything that he considers his, not on things that he considers to be part of the group. So if he's speaking from something with a username, Donald J. Trump, it's private. He wants it to be private. It's his private name on his private company. The fact that it's being done while he's president has no connection. Look at his posts when he wasn't president. It's the same damn thing. The difference is that he's also using it to break other laws. I know we're trying to stay neutral, but it's late, and I'm trying to wrap it up, and I've still got some bile floating around, it seems. But yeah, the president can communicate without it being a presidential communication. In fact, if he was doing it on a platform that the government doesn't actually have any say over, you could even say that he was committing a low form of treason, letting things be known in an insecure way rather than in a way that could be prevented from getting to the wrong people. I know I'm stretching things wildly at that point, but I'm so literally tired and tired of dealing with this stupidity. And this wasn't a professional need to foresee what was going on with the 747, which should have been communicated by someone reviewing things to the president who then would reject it on the grounds that it was a nice idea but wasn't going to work. This is the kind of situation where anyone who as a child enjoyed some kind of short demonstrating how long a Boeing takes to build could have looked at and said, Wait, so they're going to strip that down and put it back together more securely, and it's only going to take a few months? That's bullshit. It's prima facie level to the point that calling it prima facie is doling it up. It's right there. It's so obvious that the idea of having to defend it as unforeseeable just seems like the kind of thing where if someone did that, you couldn't even point and laugh because believing it makes it possible that they actually don't understand to some degree what's going on, to the point that you feel bad for them.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]
G: Yes—there is an institutional presidential social-media account, and that fact makes your argument more interesting, although I still wouldn't make the username alone dispositive.
The National Archives explicitly distinguishes institutional
accounts—including @POTUS,
@WhiteHouse, @VP, and
@PressSec—which pass from administration to administration,
from officials' personal accounts. When Obama left office, for example,
his @POTUS material was archived as @POTUS44,
while the institutional handle passed onward. NARA also expressly
contemplates that officials may conduct government business on personal
accounts; when they do, the governmental portions become presidential
records. citeturn0search8turn0search11
That gives us three categories rather than two:
1. Institutional medium + governmental
content.
@POTUS announcing an executive action. Extremely
straightforward.
2. Private medium + private content.
Personal account discussing personal matters. Extremely straightforward
in the other direction.
3. Private medium + claimed governmental
content.
This is Truth Social/@realDonaldTrump territory, and
this is where the government should have to establish the
governmental connection rather than getting it automatically from his
office.
I think that's the stronger formulation of what you're reaching for.
I can't literally prove the universal proposition “Trump has never put his name on anything he didn't regard as his”. There are too many things across an entire life for that statement to be falsifiable through ordinary research.
But the historical evidence for Trump deliberately using his personal name as an indicator of his personal commercial brand is exceptionally extensive.
Long before politics, Trump licensed the Trump name to properties he didn't even own. Financial disclosures examined by the Washington Post identified at least 50 licensing/management arrangements associated with his name, producing at least $59 million. His name was licensed to hotels, condominiums, clothing, mattresses, vodka, coffee, lighting and numerous other products. citeturn0search1turn0search12
That matters evidentially because we're not guessing that DONALD TRUMP was historically a personal brand. Selling that identification was itself a business.
Truth Social fits into that history. Contemporary reporting when it was created explicitly compared the venture to Trump's longstanding business model of monetizing his name and personal following. citeturn0search6
And the Kennedy Center episode supplies the strange modern counterpart you remembered. Trump's name was added to the Kennedy Center in December 2025. A federal court subsequently required its removal because Congress had statutorily named the institution for Kennedy. The administration has since sought to put Trump identification back on the building in another form—“Restored and Renovated by President Donald J. Trump”—and has argued that the building could face demolition without major repairs. citeturn0news52turn0search0
There has also been a much broader proliferation of Trump's name and likeness across governmental programs, buildings and materials during the second term. citeturn0search0
So I think you have a legitimate evidentiary argument, but I'd stop one step short of your conclusion.
Not:
Donald J. Trumpaccount = private communication.
Instead:
Where the President deliberately communicates through a personally controlled and financially affiliated private platform and personal identity, despite the simultaneous availability of an institutional presidential communications channel, the communication does not acquire membership in the constitutional immunity core merely from the speaker's presidential status. Its claimed official character must be independently established from the function of the particular communication.
That's substantially harder to knock down.
It also answers the old Twitter precedent. A President can conduct government business through a personal account. Fine.
But:
can be governmental
doesn't entail
presumptively is governmental
and still less
belongs to the constitutionally indispensable immunity core.
Those are three completely different propositions.
In our closed-set model, a Truth Social post saying “I have ordered the Secretary of State to…” has an obvious route toward presidential function regardless of platform.
A Truth Social post saying “Citizen Smith is a criminal and a liar” doesn't acquire that route merely because the same fingers typed it.
And a post attacking Smith repeatedly after some authoritative factual determination contradicting the accusation becomes an increasingly interesting CANDIDATE under the communication/asymmetry concept we've been developing.
I would completely discard the “low form of treason” formulation.
Not merely because it's rhetorically extreme. The Constitution unusually defines treason itself: levying war against the United States or adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Insecure presidential communication can potentially violate other legal obligations, create national-security problems, expose classified information, or constitute extraordinarily poor practice, but “treason” isn't an elastic category we can use for that. That would violate the exact definitional discipline this project is built around.
So that's an easy type error for us to reject.
Your foreseen incompetence concept is pointing somewhere useful, but I'd rename it known functional insufficiency.
“Incompetence” asks us to evaluate quality of judgment. We don't want that.
Instead:
If claimed immunity derives act E from indispensable function F, contemporaneous knowledge that E materially cannot perform F prevents F alone from establishing E's membership in the immunity set.
That is objective enough to work with.
And the Qatar aircraft has unusually good contemporaneous evidence for testing it: before conversion, specialists were publicly warning that the aircraft lacked the communications, defensive and security capabilities required of the existing presidential aircraft and that correcting those deficiencies could require enormous expenditure and time. citeturn0search0
It doesn't matter whether an ordinary person should have known that rebuilding a 747 would take forever. That's intuitive but legally mushy.
The stronger fact is:
The relevant deficiencies were actually identified before the disputed decision was completed.
That eliminates our need to argue about what Trump should have foreseen.
So we get:
Unforeseen failure: tells our membership model relatively little.
Foreseeable failure: somewhat more interesting.
Contemporaneously identified functional insufficiency: strong evidence against a claimed necessity-derived membership.
Proceeding despite that identified insufficiency: now requires some other constitutional derivation if the act is going to enter our closed set.
That is much cleaner.
And I think there's a common structure emerging between this and Truth Social:
Availability of a functionally adequate public instrument matters when the President instead chooses a personally affiliated substitute and then claims the substitute inherits the constitutional protection of the public function.
For communication: @POTUS exists, yet personally
affiliated Truth Social is selected.
For transportation: presidential aircraft exist, yet a personally preferred foreign-provided aircraft is selected despite known capability deficiencies.
That doesn't make either choice illegal.
But it does defeat a shortcut:
“The presidency needs communication/transportation; therefore this particular chosen instrument is constitutionally indispensable.”
No. The function may be indispensable while the personally selected instrument remains merely a CANDIDATE for membership.
That seems like another fairly durable piece for the draft.
M: I'll just leave out here the idea that extraordinary claims are the ones that require extraordinary proof. Claiming that one person alone has a third category, that of a private medium but with government-sponsored content, would require sufficient documentation, particularly since the regularity of— sorry, presumption of regularity is gone, because of the same person. Call it rhetorical shorthand if you want. The Donald J. Trump account is a private communication, perhaps not as an absolute, but as the sum of a lifetime of braggadocio and slapping his name on everything in a way that requires that while it's not impossible, you're going to have to show that this was premeditated intent rather than allowing that it might be possible. You're right about the treason shit, although that's on my mind because of all of the Mar-a-Lago documents stuff that he had swept under the rug because he rolled double sixes in terms of which judge he got. Any evidence that has been released has said that he was guilty of possessing classified documents, and yet because of judicial antics, it has not been allowed to be presented as anything coherent. Don't argue with me on this one. We're getting into another area where what I'm saying is true, but you can find things to pick at. And I am not trying to go down that road right now or in this silo.
G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]
G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]
G: Yes. I think that is a more precise statement of your position, and there is one piece of existing law that actually helps define it without requiring us to claim the username is dispositive.
The Supreme Court's unanimous 2024 decision in Lindke v. Freed said that an official using a social-media account acts governmentally only when (1) the official possesses actual governmental authority relevant to the conduct and (2) purports to exercise that authority in the particular social-media activity. Importantly for your argument, the Court said that if an account is explicitly designated personal, that produces a “heavy presumption” that its posts are personal. When the account is ambiguous, courts examine the content and function of particular posts. citeturn0search24
So I'd modify our developing rule to something like:
Personal-medium presumption: Communication through a personally controlled, personally branded medium should begin as private conduct rather than entering the immunity set automatically. A particular communication can overcome that classification when evidence establishes that the President was actually exercising an identifiable governmental authority through it.
That isn't exactly what Lindke held—it concerned state action under §1983, not presidential criminal immunity—but it's strikingly compatible with the type of classification exercise we're constructing.
And the existence of @POTUS strengthens the
evidentiary side of your argument. NARA explicitly
identifies @POTUS, @WhiteHouse,
@VP, etc. as institutional accounts that transfer
between administrations. It separately recognizes personal
accounts and says that if an official conducts government business
through one, the resulting presidential-record material has to be
preserved. citeturn0search0turn0search1
There's an important conceptual nugget there:
Government business conducted through a personal medium doesn't necessarily transform the entire medium—or everything subsequently said through it—into governmental conduct.
NARA's Presidential Records Act explanation similarly distinguishes presidential records from purely private materials according to their relationship to actual constitutional, statutory, official or ceremonial duties. citeturn0search10turn0search11
So I understand your rhetorical shorthand better now:
Donald J. Trump+ personally owned company + personally controlled account + longstanding personal branding behavior = start at PRIVATE.
Then someone claiming a particular post belongs inside our closed constitutional immunity set has to supply the missing arrow:
PRIVATE MEDIUM → [identify governmental function actually being exercised] → ARTICLE II/derived function → immunity-set candidate.
And you're explicitly not claiming that arrow can never exist. A Truth Social post could say something whose official character is independently demonstrable. You're objecting to quietly replacing the missing arrow with:
“He was President when he typed it.”
That would indeed defeat the purpose of our entire membership exercise.
I also agree about stopping the Mar-a-Lago-document branch here. It raises separate classification, possession, obstruction, Presidential Records Act and procedural questions that would send this silo considerably sideways. I won't use it as a premise in this immunity model unless we deliberately return to it.
One final correction to my own earlier framing: “private medium + government-sponsored content” doesn't really need to be a third ontological category at all. That's what was bothering you, and I see why. It can remain a private medium through which a person sometimes performs an official act. We classify the act, not magically reclassify the privately owned pipe.
That is considerably cleaner for the closed-set model.