2026-09-09 12:44:57 EDT

M: Go online to find this. Try and filter out any current political rhetoric, and explain to me what laws are in place regarding the United States Postal Service in terms of when they can make various requirements of packages or posts that are sent. The context is, in fact, the current fight about Donald trying to get the post office to gatekeep voting to get around the idea that only states and Congress get to say what goes on with voting. But I'm looking for the objective information behind that because I don't know how those rules are set, or what the scope of their capacity to set them is. Because, all right, so here's how I got to this question. At its most basic, the idea is the post office is supposed to deliver stuff, not pass judgment. Then I thought that one of the arguments someone made where they were trying to claim that they weren't trying to affect—they weren't trying to do anything political, merely to regulate the mail—was ridiculous. And in context, it is because it's obvious why this is being done, so there's no way for it not to be political. But then I thought that the Postal Service must either make rules as they go along about how things can be, or must be marked or branded or whatever, depending on things, you know, like priority mail, or how they're able to decide that they can't deliver something because of insufficient postage or whatever. So there must be either actual legislation dictating each of these, or some form of legislation dictating how and to what degree the Postal Service is allowed to make rules within its own domain. I can't remember exactly how it popped into my head, but one of the reasons that I decided to ask you to go out looking is because something about the way someone was saying something made me think, well yeah, your argument would make sense if you were trying to apply it to everything, not just votes. So see what you can find, please, and break it down into a comprehensive briefing, please.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. Your intuition maps surprisingly well onto the actual legal structure, but there is an important distinction hiding inside it:

USPS has broad authority to regulate how something travels through the mail. It does not follow that USPS has broad authority to regulate whether the underlying activity represented by that mail is legally valid.

That distinction is very close to the fault line in the current ballot-mail litigation.

I went backward from the current dispute into Title 39, the Postal Reorganization Act, the Domestic Mail Manual, Postal Regulatory Commission provisions, and the current court order. That makes it possible to separate the ordinary postal law from the election fight.

1. Where USPS gets its rulemaking power

Congress did not legislate every detail such as "an envelope must be X inches wide" or "Priority Mail must have this marking."

Instead, Congress created USPS and delegated a substantial amount of operational rulemaking authority to it.

The central provision is 39 U.S.C. §401(2). USPS may:

adopt, amend, and repeal rules and regulations, so long as they are consistent with Title 39 and necessary to carry out its statutory functions.

Congress separately gave USPS specific authority under §404(a) to regulate the collection, handling, transportation, delivery, forwarding, return, and holding of mail, and to determine postage and how postage is paid. citeturn0search3turn0search1

So your second hypothesis was basically correct:

Congress establishes USPS's mission and boundaries → Congress delegates operational authority → USPS fills in the enormous quantity of practical details.

Those details wind up principally in the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM), which isn't merely an employee handbook. The DMM is incorporated into federal regulations through 39 C.F.R. Part 111. citeturn2search0

That's why USPS can legitimately say things like:

Congress expressly permits USPS to establish size and weight limits, for example, although some of that authority operates within the regulatory structure overseen by the Postal Regulatory Commission. citeturn0search10turn0search0

So "the post office is supposed to deliver stuff, not pass judgment" is directionally right but legally too broad. USPS absolutely passes judgment about mailability and compliance with postal standards.


2. There are actually several different kinds of "postal judgment"

This is the distinction I think you were reaching for.

USPS decision Ordinary example Source of authority
Physical mailability Too heavy, wrong dimensions Congress delegates operational authority
Service qualification Doesn't qualify for Priority/Marketing Mail rate Postal statutes + USPS/PRC rules
Preparation Wrong packaging, barcode, address format USPS delegated authority
Safety Hazardous material improperly packaged Often directly grounded in federal statute + USPS implementing rules
Legally nonmailable matter Certain prohibited articles/materials Primarily congressional prohibition
Underlying legal entitlement "Is this person legally entitled to cast this ballot?" Normally not a postal question

That last transition is the problem.

Congress itself has enacted numerous laws identifying material that is nonmailable. USPS then implements those statutes with extremely detailed regulations.

USPS's Publication 52 actually describes the underlying principle: things capable of injuring people, mail or property can be nonmailable, while various federal laws create additional restricted categories. citeturn0search5turn0search9

That is considerably different from USPS independently deciding:

"Congress hasn't prohibited this from being mailed, but we've determined that the sender/recipient isn't legally entitled to engage in the activity represented by this piece of mail."

And there is very old Supreme Court precedent pointing directly at that distinction.


3. The surprisingly relevant old Supreme Court rule

The September 4 district-court decision quotes American School of Magnetic Healing v. McAnnulty (1902):

USPS's ability to exclude mail or refuse delivery "must depend upon some law of Congress."

The court then relies on Hannegan v. Esquire (1946) for the proposition that federal postal law creates a distinction between mailable and nonmailable material. citeturn4view3

That history matters enormously.

The ordinary structure isn't:

USPS can establish whatever conditions it thinks desirable because it controls the mailstream.

It's closer to:

Congress determines USPS's legal mission and can prohibit categories of mail → USPS has substantial delegated authority to establish the operational conditions necessary to run that system.

That sounds like a subtle distinction until you apply your test.


4. Your "would this make sense if applied to everything?" test

Suppose USPS says:

"For automated bulk mail, every envelope needs this barcode in this location."

That's quintessential postal regulation.

It applies because USPS needs machines to sort millions of pieces efficiently.

Likewise:

"This package weighs 14 ounces, so you owe the postage applicable to 14 ounces."

Postal regulation.

Or:

"Lithium batteries have to be packaged and labeled this way because they can start fires."

Again postal regulation, reinforced by congressional safety statutes. citeturn0search6turn0search13

Now imagine:

"This envelope contains an application for a state professional license. Before we'll deliver it, the state must give USPS a database of everyone entitled to apply, and USPS will reject applications that don't match our database."

That looks completely different.

USPS isn't regulating mail transportation anymore.

It is using control over mail transportation to create an additional eligibility checkpoint in somebody else's regulatory system.

That's an excellent conceptual model for understanding the present dispute.


5. And that is unusually close to what the current rule does

The August final rule requires new conditions specifically for federal ballot mail, including envelope standards, serialized Intelligent Mail barcodes and data supplied through a federal ballot-mail system. USPS defended the rule under §§401 and 404—the same broad powers I described above. citeturn3view0turn3search1

Its legal argument is basically:

These are mail-preparation, acceptance and data-reporting standards. Regulating preparation and acceptance of mail is something Congress has authorized USPS to do.

That's not a frivolous argument. In fact, stripping the politics away, there genuinely is broad USPS authority over mail preparation. Courts historically have upheld things like USPS rules concerning mail receptacles and delivery procedures. USPS emphasizes those precedents in its final rule. citeturn3search2

And there's an especially important wrinkle:

Before this controversy, USPS already recommended things such as the official Election Mail logo, Intelligent Mail barcodes and consultation with USPS concerning envelope compatibility with automated sorting equipment. citeturn4view4

So requiring a particular physical envelope format is much closer to normal postal regulation than creating a voter-verification system.

That distinction is worth preserving rather than treating the entire rule as equally questionable.


6. Where the argument starts getting much weaker

The challenged rule doesn't merely say:

"If you mail ballots, make them machine-readable like this."

It creates mandatory requirements specifically for ballot mail and requires election officials to provide USPS with information about people receiving mail ballots. Noncompliant ballot mail can then be refused.

That creates a strange inversion:

State election law says:
"This person may receive/send this ballot."

Postal Service says:
"We won't accept/transmit the ballot unless our additional federal postal requirements have been satisfied."

The federal district court on September 4 found that plaintiffs are likely to prevail precisely because Congress never delegated election-regulation authority to USPS. The court stressed that Title 39 contains no election-specific delegation and that USPS's historical election-mail guidance had been nonbinding. citeturn4view3turn4view4

The decision therefore draws almost exactly the line we're talking about:

Postal Clause authority ≠ Elections Clause authority.

Congress has both constitutional powers. But delegating some of Congress's postal power to USPS doesn't automatically delegate Congress's separate constitutional power to regulate federal elections. citeturn4view3

That's an unusually important distinction.


7. Congress deliberately built some brakes into USPS authority

USPS isn't simply an executive department whose internal policies the President gets to rewrite at will.

Congress made it an "independent establishment of the executive branch." Its governance runs through a Board of Governors, and the Governors select the Postmaster General. The Postal Reorganization Act was partly intended to reduce direct political influence over postal operations. The current district court expressly discusses that institutional history. citeturn4view4

There is also an independent Postal Regulatory Commission (PRC).

For example, if USPS proposes a change in the nature of postal services affecting the nation or substantially the whole nation, §3661 requires USPS to seek a PRC advisory opinion before implementing it. citeturn1search14

Interested persons can also bring certain complaints against USPS before the PRC, which can order corrective action, followed by judicial review. citeturn1search3turn4view4

And Congress gave USPS an affirmative mission rather than merely discretionary powers. Section 403 says USPS "shall receive, transmit, and deliver" written matter and parcels throughout the United States while maintaining an efficient nationwide collection/sorting/delivery system. citeturn1search6

Section 101 goes even broader: USPS is a "basic and fundamental service" whose function is to bind the nation together and provide prompt, reliable and efficient service throughout the country. citeturn1search0

So its rulemaking authority has to be understood inside that mission, not as an unlimited power arising merely because USPS physically possesses the envelope.


8. There is another limit that fits your intuition: discrimination among mail users

Title 39 also restricts USPS from engaging in "undue or unreasonable discrimination among users of the mails."

The current district-court opinion specifically identifies §403(c) as imposing that limitation. citeturn4view1

That doesn't mean USPS must treat every piece of mail identically. Obviously it doesn't.

A 40-pound parcel can have different requirements from a letter. Hazardous chemicals can have different requirements from birthday cards. Bulk advertisers can have different preparation requirements from someone mailing Grandma a postcard.

The key is that differences ordinarily need a postal justification.

Weight → transportation cost.

Dimensions → machinery.

Barcode → sorting/tracking.

Hazardous-material label → safety.

Postage → cost of service.

Address standards → deliverability.

And this gets us to what I think is the strongest formulation of the thought you had.


9. The "apply it to everything" intuition is actually a useful diagnostic

It isn't literally a legal test. But it exposes what kind of power USPS is exercising.

Ask:

What characteristic of this piece of mail creates the special postal requirement?

If the answer is:

"Its size, weight, shape, destination, handling requirements, service class, safety characteristics or interaction with postal machinery,"

you're comfortably inside traditional USPS territory.

If the answer is:

"Because of the legal significance of what the document does outside the postal system,"

you're entering much more questionable territory.

And if the answer becomes:

"USPS will refuse otherwise ordinary mail unless the sender satisfies a regulatory condition belonging to another governmental system,"

you've crossed considerably farther.

That's essentially why the envelope/barcode portion and the eligibility/data-verification portion shouldn't necessarily be analyzed identically.

A mandatory standardized ballot envelope arguably looks like postal engineering.

A postal system that effectively determines whether a particular voter's ballot may enter the mailstream starts looking like election administration conducted at the post-office door.


10. The current legal status

As of September 9, 2026, the rule is not presently being enforced for the November election. Judge Indira Talwani issued a preliminary injunction September 4. The administration has gone to the Supreme Court seeking emergency relief. citeturn1news86turn1news88

Importantly, the judge did not merely conclude that the policy was politically motivated.

Her reasoning is structural. She found the challengers likely to succeed because:

(1) election administration is constitutionally allocated primarily to states, subject to Congress under the Elections Clause;

(2) Congress has enacted detailed federal election laws but has never expressly delegated Elections Clause authority to USPS;

(3) §401's general postal-rulemaking authorization therefore isn't sufficient to create that election authority; and

(4) Congress has itself legislated categories of nonmailable matter, creating an additional problem with USPS effectively creating new grounds for refusing otherwise mailable ballot mail. citeturn4view3

That's considerably stronger and cleaner than "Trump's motive is political."

The motive question can practically matter, but you don't need it to identify the underlying legal problem.


The shortest accurate model

I would reduce the whole system to this:

Congress:
"Here is what the Postal Service is, what it must accomplish, what it may regulate, and some things that may or may not be mailed."

↓ delegates

USPS:
"To accomplish that postal mission, here are the operational standards governing postage, size, packaging, labeling, barcodes, preparation, acceptance, transportation and delivery."

↓ supervised/constrained by

Postal Regulatory Commission + courts + congressional statutes

The disputed ballot rule introduces another step:

USPS:
"Because this mailpiece is part of an election, we will impose additional requirements connected to election administration before accepting/transmitting it."

And the unresolved constitutional/statutory question is:

Did Congress's delegation of postal regulatory authority actually authorize that last step?

The district court's present answer is no, and its reasoning is quite close to your instinct: control of the transportation mechanism does not automatically confer regulatory authority over the activity being transported. citeturn4view3

One useful analogy is that the FAA can establish safety requirements for an aircraft carrying campaign workers; that doesn't mean its authority over aviation lets it decide which campaign workers are legally qualified to participate in an election. Regulating the conduit and regulating the thing conducted through it are separate powers.

The Supreme Court's treatment of the emergency application could materially change the legal picture very soon.

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2026-09-09 12:52:19 EDT

M: Yeah, around number four, you're getting to where my question was, even if I wasn't articulating it well. Is there anything in the Postal Service's legal domains that allow it to decide that someone cannot be delivered to? Which is important to distinguish from equivocation between that and the idea that it was impossible to make a delivery. Because I think that's where the crucial stupidity is happening, somewhere around that area. Like refusal to deliver based on an externally created source does not seem to be anywhere within their hell. I don't think you've mentioned anything about being able to refuse to engage in national mail for any reason, like a blacklist or anything. I don't think that was mentioned. So let's start picking at things from there. What is the United States Postal Service's capacity to refuse delivery? Just so you know, to keep from getting distracted, I am going to stop reading your answer around number six because I don't want it to undermine this line of thought. So it might be necessary to repeat that stuff if it comes into play.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. Narrowing the question that way reveals something important. I checked Title 39 specifically for authority to refuse delivery to an addressee, rather than authority to reject a particular mailpiece.

The answer is: USPS does possess some power to withhold mail from a person, but the powers I can find are narrow, enumerated, and usually traceable directly to Congress. I do not find a general USPS power to decide that an otherwise valid addressee is simply ineligible to receive otherwise mailable mail.

That makes your distinction between "cannot deliver" and "will not deliver to this person" quite important.

Start with the default rule

USPS's own Domestic Mail Manual states the baseline remarkably plainly:

"Without a contrary order, the mail is delivered as addressed."

The addressee can refuse it, of course. But the default isn't "USPS determines whether this recipient ought to receive this." It's essentially address → delivery, subject to defined exceptions. citeturn0search12turn0search47

Congress's grant of operational power in §404 fits that. USPS can provide rules for the "delivery, forwarding, returning, and holding of mail" and disposition of undeliverable mail. citeturn0search9

And that word undeliverable gets very close to the distinction you're making.

There are ordinary situations where delivery doesn't happen: nonexistent address, moved person without forwarding, inaccessible mailbox, recipient refuses it, postage problem, etc. Those concern whether/how USPS can complete delivery.

But Congress separately wrote laws for the much more extraordinary situation:

The address exists, the person exists, the mail could physically be delivered—and nevertheless USPS must not give this person the mail.

And those statutes are revealing.

There actually are things resembling postal "blacklists"

The clearest example is 39 U.S.C. §3005.

If USPS establishes that someone is conducting specified fraud through the mail or certain lottery schemes, USPS can issue an order directing the local postmaster to return mail addressed to that person to the sender rather than deliver it.

But look at how specific Congress was. Congress itself said what conduct qualifies, authorized this extraordinary remedy, specified what happens to the mail, and even required that the affected person receive notice and an opportunity to inspect the mail before it is returned. citeturn0search0

There's an even stronger safeguard for temporary detention during proceedings. Under §3007, USPS generally has to go to federal district court to obtain an order temporarily detaining the relevant incoming/outgoing mail, demonstrate likelihood of success, and mail that isn't clearly covered by the proceeding "shall be delivered as addressed." citeturn0search8

That is almost a statutory demonstration of your intuition:

Congress knows how to give USPS the power to refuse delivery to someone when Congress wants USPS to have it.

And Congress doesn't merely say "USPS may make reasonable regulations concerning delivery."

It specifies the circumstance.

Another fascinating example: false identity

Under §3003, if someone is using a fictitious name/address in connection with specified federal crimes, USPS may withhold mail and demand proof of the claimant's "identity and right to receive the mail."

If that proof isn't provided, it can return the mail. citeturn0search5

That initially sounds dangerously close to the authority we're investigating.

But notice what triggers it.

Congress didn't authorize USPS generally to determine someone's right to receive mail. Congress identified a very particular postal abuse—using a fictitious identity/address to conduct specified crimes through the mail—and expressly authorized USPS to verify identity in that situation.

There's another statute, §3004, allowing USPS to require identification when someone deliberately has mail sent somewhere other than their residence or regular business to escape identification. Again, Congress expressly created that power. citeturn0search10

So there is indeed precedent for:

"We know where this mail is supposed to go, but we're withholding it until we're satisfied that this person is entitled to receive it."

But it's not something USPS seems to have invented under its generic delivery authority. Congress wrote the entitlement test into postal law.

That produces three very different buckets

I think this is the cleaner taxonomy for what you're trying to isolate:

Situation What USPS is deciding
Undeliverable "We cannot deliver this mail as addressed."
Nonmailable / noncompliant "This particular thing cannot legally/properly travel through the postal system."
Recipient disqualification "We could deliver this perfectly valid mailpiece to this perfectly real address, but this person is not legally entitled to receive it."

USPS has enormous everyday discretion over #1.

It has substantial authority over #2, although much of the serious nonmailability law comes expressly from Congress. Section 3001, for instance, expressly defines categories of nonmailable matter and incorporates several criminal statutes. citeturn0search6

But #3 is exceptional.

The examples I've found are Congress saying, in effect:

In this specific circumstance, USPS may/must withhold this person's mail.

That is substantially different from USPS deriving a generalized recipient-eligibility power from its authority to regulate "delivery."

And here's the point I think you were circling

Suppose Virginia sends something to:

John Smith
123 Main Street
Richmond, VA

USPS can legitimately ask postal questions:

Does 123 Main Street exist?
Is John Smith receiving mail there?
Is the address formatted sufficiently to route it?
Is the postage correct?
Is the mailpiece physically mailable?
Is delivery physically accessible?
Has John Smith refused delivery?
Is there a congressional statute/order requiring this mail to be withheld?

But there's a qualitatively different question:

"Virginia says John Smith is legally entitled to receive this document. Does USPS agree with Virginia that John Smith qualifies?"

I haven't found a general statutory authority giving USPS that function.

And the exceptions actually make the absence more conspicuous, because Congress has written statutes explicitly authorizing recipient-level gatekeeping when it wanted recipient-level gatekeeping. §§3003–3005 are sitting right there in Title 39. citeturn0search3turn0search4

So I think I can sharpen your original "Post Office delivers stuff; it doesn't pass judgment" formulation considerably:

USPS routinely judges whether mail is deliverable. It sometimes judges whether a mailpiece is mailable. But deciding whether an otherwise valid addressee is legally entitled to receive otherwise deliverable mail appears to require a separate legal basis—it isn't simply inherent in the fact that USPS performs the delivery.

That's a much more defensible proposition.

And it suggests the next thing worth picking at: whether the ballot rule is technically structured as a restriction on the sender/mailpiece rather than the recipient precisely because USPS would have a much harder time claiming authority to say "this voter may not receive mail." That distinction may explain some otherwise peculiar drafting in the rule.

2026-09-09 13:05:01 EDT

M: So at that point of the argument, we can basically say that unless Congress says so, the USPS is not allowed to fail to deliver something. Not without a damn good reason, and certainly not as part of a process without any kind of oversight or standard outside of the postal service itself. And that's important because once you've established that, it doesn't matter if the executive order came through telling it what to do, or if it came from the folks at Nickelodeon who didn't want things delivered to people over twelve years old, or what. They aren't allowed to do it for anyone, so they can't do it for a particular person by definition.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes—with one modification that makes the argument considerably harder to attack.

I would not formulate the rule as "unless Congress says so, USPS is not allowed to fail to deliver something." USPS plainly has delegated discretion over delivery mechanics: inaccessible addresses, safety problems, undeliverable mail, holds, forwarding, postal compliance, and so forth. Section 404 expressly authorizes USPS to regulate "delivery, forwarding, returning, and holding" and disposition of undeliverable mail. citeturn0search9

The stronger formulation is:

USPS cannot invent a non-postal reason for disqualifying an otherwise valid recipient from receiving otherwise deliverable mail unless Congress has given USPS authority to make that determination.

That fits the statutory architecture unusually well.

Congress actually starts with an affirmative command in §403: USPS "shall receive, transmit, and deliver" mail throughout the country and maintain nationwide delivery. It also prohibits "undue or unreasonable discrimination among users of the mails" except where Title 39 specifically authorizes it. citeturn0search0

Then §401 gives USPS rulemaking power, but importantly, only rules "necessary in the execution of its functions" under Title 39 or other functions assigned to USPS by law. citeturn0search5

And when Congress wants USPS to perform the extraordinary act we're discussing—"That is a perfectly deliverable address, but don't give this person his mail"—Congress knows how to say so explicitly. Section 3003 literally says USPS may "withhold mail so addressed from delivery" in the particular fictitious-name/criminal-use circumstances Congress specified. citeturn0search3

So your Nickelodeon hypothetical is actually useful because it strips away all the election baggage.

Imagine Nickelodeon somehow persuaded the President to issue:

Children's entertainment companies have determined that Nickelodeon promotional material should only be provided to persons twelve years of age or younger. USPS shall obtain recipient age information and refuse delivery to recipients over twelve.

The immediate legal question isn't whether Nickelodeon's age criterion is sensible.

It isn't even initially whether the President had a good reason for issuing the order.

It's:

Where did USPS acquire authority to determine the recipient's eligibility for Nickelodeon material in the first place?

If Congress hasn't assigned USPS that function, an executive order doesn't magically enlarge USPS's statutory jurisdiction. USPS's own general rulemaking provision is expressly tied to functions assigned to it by law. citeturn0search7

And that produces the distinction I think you've been trying to isolate:

"We cannot deliver this to David" can be a postal determination.

Wrong address. No safe access. David moved. Mail isn't properly addressed. Mailpiece isn't legally mailable.

But:

"We can deliver this to David, but an outside criterion says David isn't entitled to receive it" is a completely different species of determination.

At that point USPS isn't determining deliverability. It is determining eligibility.

And therefore your last sentence is basically right, but I'd sharpen it one notch:

If USPS has no statutory authority to apply criterion X to mail recipients generally, the President cannot create that authority merely by ordering USPS to apply criterion X to a particular class of recipients.

The executive order can direct an agency's exercise of authority it possesses. It isn't itself a congressional delegation of new statutory power.

That also means you don't even have to reach the politically messier question of why Donald wants the rule. If the disputed requirement asks USPS to make a determination outside the set of determinations Congress has empowered USPS to make, good motive, bad motive, Nickelodeon motive, election-security motive—it encounters the same antecedent problem:

Show me the authority to make that determination.

That's a much cleaner argument than proving political intent.

2026-09-09 13:05:36 EDT

M: Okay, I need you to not equivocate in the way that I was warned against. You know what I'm talking about. Dragging that kind of qualification in there makes it seem like there's a door where there isn't any, and that's the reason why people keep hitting at that little area with a crowbar in the hopes of breaking the entire damn thing.

G: You're right about the specific distinction. My qualification blurred failure of delivery with refusal of delivery, after we'd already separated them. That accidentally reopened the very ambiguity we had just closed.

For the proposition you're making:

USPS cannot decide that a person is not entitled to receive otherwise lawful, deliverable mail unless Congress has given it authority to do so.

The ordinary exceptions—bad address, inaccessible mailbox, insufficient postage, hazardous/nonmailable contents—aren't exceptions to that proposition. They aren't recipient disqualification at all.

So the clean chain is:

  1. Congress requires USPS to provide nationwide mail service.
  2. USPS can make postal determinations necessary to perform that service.
  3. USPS does not possess a general power to decide who is entitled to receive mail.
  4. Where Congress wants USPS to withhold otherwise deliverable mail from a recipient, Congress provides specific legal authority for doing so.
  5. Neither the President nor USPS can manufacture a new recipient-disqualification power merely by calling it a postal regulation.
  6. Therefore, an outside instruction identifying particular people as ineligible for delivery has no force through USPS unless Congress has authorized USPS to act on that criterion.

And yes, your Nickelodeon example captures the abstraction particularly well. Whether the outside instruction comes from the President, Nickelodeon, a state government, a trade association, or anybody else doesn't cure the missing authority.

The question isn't "Is their reason for withholding the mail good enough?"

It's "What law gives USPS the power to withhold this person's otherwise deliverable mail for that reason?"

If the answer is none, there isn't a balancing test hiding behind it. USPS doesn't acquire the power because the proposed reason sounds important.

That is the line I should have preserved without surrounding it with unrelated deliverability qualifications.

2026-09-09 13:06:30 EDT

M: And importantly for anyone introducing the argument, you'd be able to say that Donald doesn't matter. We've already had a discussion that one of the best ways to piss him off is to say he is irrelevant in any given situation. Ignoring him seems to be the best way to tweak him.

G: Yes—in this particular legal argument, Donald can be made analytically irrelevant, which is stronger than making him the villain of it.

You can construct the argument without establishing his intent, motives, honesty, election objectives, or even discussing the executive order:

The question isn't who asked USPS to do it or why. The question is whether Congress gave USPS the authority to decide that an otherwise eligible recipient may not receive otherwise deliverable mail. If Congress didn't give USPS that authority, Donald is irrelevant. The President cannot supply a statutory power that Congress did not delegate.

That also prevents the argument from becoming another fight over "Trump says this is election integrity; opponents say it's voter suppression." Neither characterization answers the antecedent legal question.

And your Nickelodeon substitution is useful rhetorically precisely because of that. Replace Donald with Nickelodeon, a Democratic president, the NRA, the ACLU, or virtually anybody else. If USPS lacks the power, changing who requested the action doesn't create it.

There is one legal wrinkle I'd keep separate rather than insert into the argument: a President can sometimes influence how an agency exercises authority Congress already gave it. But that's downstream. It doesn't answer the question you're asking about whether the authority exists in the first place.

So the particularly compact version might be:

Donald doesn't matter. This isn't a question about presidential power or presidential motives. First show that Congress gave the Postal Service the power to decide who is entitled to receive otherwise deliverable mail. If it didn't, it doesn't matter who told USPS to do it.

That forces an opponent onto the statutory-authority question instead of letting the conversation escape into Donald's preferred terrain of arguing about Donald.

2026-09-09 16:40:33 EDT

M: Go online and look at what's going on lately. I mean, I'm listening to so many different podcasts that keep focusing on the idea that Donald made some sort of executive order, and none of them seem to be addressing the idea that it doesn't matter what he did or said, that it is completely illegal for the USPS to do anything involving restricting delivery of anything, etc., etc. And either find me something that we have missed, which means that the focus should be on the executive, or verify for me that everyone has their head up their ass because Donald is involved. Please interpret that a little bit more flexibly. I'm trying to figure out why the hell it is that if it's such an obvious idea, you know, that the USPS can no more do this than if Donald ordered the Cub Scouts to start policing immigrants, in terms of legality. Why it is that no one seems to be trying to catch things that way, and everyone is focusing on Donald and what he's trying to get them to do. I mean, yes, it's ridiculous, but like in my example, they're focusing on whether he's allowed to ask them rather than whether the Cub Scouts should actually be given some sort of legal backup in my example.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: I went looking specifically for the thing that could prove our reasoning wrong: some independent legal authority allowing USPS to create this kind of refusal-to-transmit rule, such that the real legal fight necessarily has to be about Donald's executive authority.

I did not find it.

More importantly, I found something much stronger than our inference: the federal judge currently hearing the challenge has now articulated essentially our argument, separately from the challenge to Donald's executive order. And the government's own litigation position makes the distinction unusually clear.

The thing the coverage is burying

The September 4 opinion has three separate merits holdings. The press coverage overwhelmingly leads with the first:

  1. Elections Clause: States and Congress regulate elections; the President doesn't have independent Elections Clause authority. citeturn3view0

But Judge Indira Talwani then says, separately:

  1. USPS acted ultra vires: even putting the executive-order problem aside, USPS itself doesn't have statutory authority from Congress to do this. citeturn3view0

And then separately again:

  1. Title 39/nonmailability: Congress has specified what USPS may exclude from the mail, and USPS cannot manufacture a new category of mail that it refuses to carry. citeturn3view0

It's #3 that is almost exactly the thing we backed into.

And the opinion uses a 1902 Supreme Court case to state it considerably more forcefully than I had been stating it.

The Supreme Court in American School of Magnetic Healing v. McAnnulty said USPS's power to exclude letters or refuse delivery to the addressed person:

"must depend upon some law of Congress"

and without such a law USPS "cannot exclude or refuse to deliver them." citeturn3view0

So, yes. There actually is a 124-year-old Supreme Court statement of almost exactly the proposition you were trying to derive.

That's important enough that I would revise my confidence upward substantially.


And here is the really interesting part: the government isn't claiming Donald supplies the missing USPS power

This is what convinced me that you aren't overlooking some important executive-law wrinkle.

Look at footnote 33 of Talwani's opinion:

"Defendants and Intervenor-Defendants point only to this rulemaking authority and do not claim that the USPS issued the Final Rule pursuant to the President's general executive powers under Article II." citeturn3view0

That's enormous for our particular question.

The government's defense of the USPS rule itself is not:

Donald is President → Article II lets him tell USPS to do this → therefore USPS may do it.

Their argument is:

Congress already gave USPS this authority through 39 U.S.C. §§401 and 404.

In other words, even the government recognizes that Donald's order can't itself provide the Postal Service with the statutory power it needs.

Donald can tell USPS to consider doing X.

USPS still needs USPS's own lawful authority to do X.

And that's exactly where the fight we're discussing occurs.


So why does the government think §§401 and 404 save it?

This is the strongest thing I found against our argument, and it's worth understanding because this is where the actual legal contest lives.

USPS says Congress gave it broad authority to make rules necessary to perform its postal functions, including rules governing "collection, handling, transportation, delivery, forwarding, returning, and holding of mail."

USPS therefore characterizes the ballot regulation as nothing more exotic than:

mailpiece preparation + acceptance + data-reporting requirements.

Its argument is essentially:

We aren't deciding whether David can vote. Virginia decides that. We're merely saying that if Virginia wants USPS to transport this particular category of mail, Virginia has to prepare it according to these postal requirements.

USPS emphasizes that it has long imposed preparation requirements on different categories of mail and has long given special operational guidance concerning election mail. citeturn3view1

That's the crowbar.

And now I understand why they're phrasing the rule the way they are.

They very conspicuously deny that they're determining voter eligibility. The final rule says states remain responsible for deciding who may vote by mail; USPS claims it merely checks whether the state's ballot mailing corresponds to data the state supplied and satisfies USPS's preparation standards. citeturn3view1

So they are trying extremely hard to keep this in:

"conditions for accepting a mailpiece"

rather than:

"new category of mail that USPS refuses to carry."

Because the second formulation runs straight into the old Supreme Court precedent.


Talwani says that distinction doesn't work

This is probably the single most important part of what I found.

USPS expressly argued:

conditions on accepting mailable material are different from declaring material nonmailable.

Talwani answers, essentially: No, they're not, when the consequence of violating the condition is that USPS refuses to carry the mail.

She points out that Congress itself has created conditional nonmailability rules. For example, Congress can say a particular solicitation is nonmailable unless it carries a specified notice.

Therefore you can't evade Congress's control over nonmailability simply by saying:

"Oh, ballots aren't nonmailable. We're merely refusing to accept ballots that don't satisfy our new conditions."

The practical/legal result is the same: USPS has established a condition under which otherwise lawful mail will not enter the mailstream.

Talwani therefore concludes that USPS has effectively created a new category of nonmailable material, something Congress did not authorize it to do. citeturn3view0

That is remarkably close to your "crucial stupidity somewhere around that area."


And this changes my assessment of the media coverage

I wouldn't say everyone has their head up their ass. There's a legitimate reason the executive order gets discussed: there really is a separate, serious constitutional question about a President attempting to exercise election-regulatory authority belonging to states and Congress.

And procedurally, the litigation originally was about the executive order before USPS finalized its rule. Talwani notes that USPS didn't issue the final rule until August 21. Earlier litigation therefore necessarily concentrated on what Donald had ordered USPS to do because the final USPS action didn't exist yet. citeturn1view0

That history explains quite a bit of the reporting habit.

But now that the final USPS rule exists, continuing to describe the entire controversy principally as "Is Trump allowed to restrict mail voting by executive order?" obscures an independent and arguably simpler problem.

The current news coverage really does lean heavily toward the Donald/Elections-Clause framing. Reuters describes the controversy principally as the administration defending Trump's directive; AP similarly describes litigation over Trump's executive order and the constitutional allocation of election authority. citeturn0news31turn0news34

Meanwhile, the September 4 judicial opinion contains the wonderfully straightforward proposition:

USPS's right to refuse delivery "must depend upon some law of Congress." citeturn3view0

That's a much simpler thing to explain on a podcast.


Your Cub Scouts analogy is actually extremely close

I'd alter it slightly because USPS does have governmental authority, whereas the Cub Scouts don't.

Imagine Congress creates the National Park Service and gives it broad authority to regulate entrances, trails, campgrounds, permits, safety, and park operations.

Donald orders NPS:

"Don't admit anyone to Yellowstone unless they can demonstrate that they're current on their federal income taxes."

You could spend an enormous amount of time arguing:

Does Article II allow the President to issue that order?

But there's an antecedent question:

Where did Congress give the National Park Service authority to enforce federal tax compliance as a condition of entering Yellowstone?

Calling it an "entrance requirement" doesn't answer that question.

That's almost precisely what USPS is arguing here:

"It's not an election regulation. It's a mail-preparation and acceptance regulation."

Talwani's answer is essentially:

Changing the label doesn't manufacture the missing congressional delegation. citeturn3view0


And Donald really can disappear from one entire branch of the case

Here's the cleanest thought experiment.

Imagine Donald rescinded EO 14399 tomorrow, but USPS announced:

We've independently decided the policy is excellent. The final rule remains exactly as written.

The executive-order controversy would largely disappear.

But the question we're discussing would remain completely intact:

What Act of Congress allows USPS to refuse these otherwise mailable ballots?

USPS answers §§401 and 404.

Talwani has now answered: those provisions don't do it. Congress gave USPS operational authority over the postal system, not authority to create this new condition of nonmailability; Congress has specifically legislated nonmailable categories itself. citeturn3view0

And the 1902 Supreme Court precedent supplies the underlying rule:

No congressional law authorizing the exclusion → USPS cannot exclude or refuse delivery.

So I think the strongest conclusion from this search is:

You weren't discovering an argument that the lawyers somehow missed. You independently backed into one of the actual grounds on which the current federal injunction rests—but it's receiving much less public attention than the presidential-power/Elections-Clause argument.

And there's an especially satisfying confirmation of the exact conceptual distinction we've been working through: the judge treats "USPS lacks authority" and "the President lacks election authority" as separate grounds. citeturn3view0

So somebody can introduce this argument with:

"Forget Donald for a minute."

Not rhetorically. Legally.

Take him completely out of the hypothetical. Assume USPS invented the rule entirely by itself.

Can USPS refuse to carry otherwise lawful mail because it created a new condition Congress never authorized?

The September 4 court's present answer is no.

Only after resolving that would you ever need to ask what Donald told them to do.

navlistRecent coverage of the USPS ballot-mail litigationturn0news6,turn0news31,turn0news34

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2026-09-09 16:48:19 EDT

M: See, Donald doesn't matter because it doesn't matter if he said he granted them the power or something because he doesn't have the power to actually change any laws, no matter what his fucking EOs might say. They work within the agency, even as expanded as he might be trying to declare it, not in terms of what it does in terms of interacting with the rest of the world. Unless he's trying to claim that the executive agency is basically the entirety of America, which I really wouldn't put past him. There is no way for that to function. It just— it's really aggravating me that everyone is focusing on the wrong area. It's entirely possible that I'm not listening to the right places, but even though I tend to listen to the center-left stuff, usually there's a consideration of what's on the other side, and I make sure that, like, I have the headlines from the Wall Street Journal and other things just to get an idea of where people further to the right are focusing while trying to stay near the center, at least in perception. They are equivocating, it sounds like. They are trying to make it sound like a technicality, even though their methodology requires an outside source and requirement. They are trying to make it seem as though the recipient is the one that causes the qualification, when in fact, if they were going to refuse any kind of mail, it has to be done when they receive it, and for good reasons besides where they are sending it, and that's just not right. Anything that involves a list of eligibility is already automatically requiring some sort of review. They have no capacity to say, Well, we will not deliver to this person, and that's where the problem is, I think. I'm babbling a little bit, or maybe just circling the same topic and rephrasing it, but I want to make sure that you and I are saying the same thing. Often you hit the nail on the head so hard that I have to make sure that there wasn't anything that kind of escaped getting struck. Any requirement of information is beyond their purview, outside of delivering things. They are not allowed to qualify things in terms of the reception. Another way of putting it would be that the USPS has no remit to have a clause beginning with unless. That is, they can't say, We will deliver unless such and such, if that clause contains anything subjective or unaddressed by law. And my point with the Cub Scout thing, it doesn't need modification because the point isn't whether, isn't the nature of what Donald is trying to assign, but the fact that trying to assign it has nothing to do with actually giving that power to a particular group. He's not allowed to do that. He can't weaponize the Cub Scouts. He can't grant the Postal Service the ability to pick and choose who it delivers to, etc., etc. The states are, for this purpose, no different from any other independent entity that might drop off a box of mail. There are technical elements which they are allowed to relegate and must be followed, but as a shorthand, as long as the address is legible and there's enough postage, they are not allowed to then impose other requirements, which are not, let's say— Oh man, how? I know what I'm trying to say, but I can't think of how to put it quickly. The idea is that they can set rules, but none that are contingent upon a back and forth between the person who is sending and the Postal Service. This is not a live decision that is considered each time. Every employee should be able to quickly run through things, not have to check an external list outside of the Postal Service. I feel like I'm saying it badly. There's a conceptual difference that I just am not putting my verbal finger on.

G: Yes. I think I can put the missing conceptual distinction under your finger.

It isn't quite objective versus subjective, and it isn't quite postal information versus outside information. USPS legitimately uses outside facts sometimes—hazmat declarations, customs information, court orders, address changes, and so forth.

The distinction you're reaching for is closer to:

A postal rule may establish conditions on the mailpiece and the postal transaction. It cannot create a new condition on the recipient's underlying legal eligibility and then make carriage contingent upon USPS verifying that condition, unless Congress has expressly assigned USPS that function.

That captures the thing you've been circling.

Think of it as inspection versus adjudication

Ordinary USPS requirements allow a postal worker/system to determine:

"Does this mailpiece satisfy the conditions for this postal service?"

Postage. Dimensions. Address. Packaging. Hazard markings. Service class. Machine compatibility. Those are properties of the mail transaction.

The disputed mechanism introduces something fundamentally different:

"Before performing the postal transaction, determine whether an external legal/regulatory condition has been satisfied."

Now USPS needs information that doesn't arise from the postal transaction itself. Someone has to establish the eligibility criterion; someone has to supply the data; USPS has to compare the mail against it; discrepancies have to mean something; and ultimately USPS has to decide what consequence follows.

That's not merely processing mail anymore.

It's administering an eligibility regime through the mail system.

And that's why your instinct about the list is useful. The external list isn't itself what makes something unlawful. It's evidence that USPS is being asked to perform a second governmental function before performing its postal one.


Your "unless" formulation works with one important definition

I'd formulate it this way:

USPS can have postal "unless" clauses. It cannot invent non-postal "unless" clauses.

"We'll deliver this unless the address doesn't exist."

Postal.

"We'll accept this package unless it exceeds the statutory/regulatory size limit."

Postal.

"We'll transport this material unless Congress has made it nonmailable."

Postal law.

But:

"We'll deliver this otherwise deliverable mail unless our examination of an external eligibility system says the intended recipient qualifies."

That's different.

The unless condition isn't describing the mail anymore. It's describing the recipient's legal relationship with some other system.

And McAnnulty is remarkably helpful here because the Supreme Court didn't merely say USPS needs to behave reasonably when doing this. It said the authority to exclude/refuse delivery "must depend upon some law of Congress."

That's the missing bridge.


And I agree about your Cub Scouts analogy now

I modified it previously because I was thinking about whether the analogy mapped institutional authority precisely. That missed what you were using it to demonstrate.

You're making a delegation argument.

The President saying:

"I hereby authorize the Cub Scouts to enforce immigration law"

doesn't require us first to investigate whether the President has good reasons for wanting Cub Scouts at the border.

The antecedent problem is:

His instruction doesn't transform the Cub Scouts into an entity possessing powers Congress never gave them.

Likewise:

"I direct USPS to perform X"

doesn't answer:

"What law makes X a function of USPS?"

An executive order can direct executive action within lawful authority. It isn't legislation conferring new statutory jurisdiction on its recipient.

That's why Donald can disappear completely from this branch of the analysis.


And there's an even cleaner way to describe what bothers you about "technical requirements"

I think jurisdictional fact may be the legal concept closest to what you're reaching for, although I wouldn't use that phrase casually because it carries specialized administrative-law baggage.

In ordinary English I'd call it an external eligibility determination.

There's a profound difference between:

"Before we carry your envelope, we determine whether your envelope qualifies for carriage."

and:

"Before we carry your envelope, we determine whether the person represented by that envelope qualifies for something outside the postal system."

Calling the second thing a mail-preparation requirement doesn't change what USPS has actually been required to determine.

That's why your observation about states is also useful. From the perspective of USPS's statutory postal function, Virginia isn't handing USPS democracy. It's handing USPS mail.

Virginia possesses election-administration authority that USPS doesn't. USPS possesses postal authority that Virginia doesn't.

Virginia says:

"These are the people to whom our election law says these ballots go."

USPS's job begins when Virginia presents the resulting mailpieces for carriage.

USPS can say:

"Put the proper postage on them."

"Address them."

"Prepare them according to lawful postal specifications."

It cannot bootstrap that into:

"Now provide us information enabling us independently to determine whether the underlying recipients satisfy an election-related condition, and we'll make carriage contingent upon that process."

Not because such a system is unreasonable.

Not because Donald requested it.

Not because voting is especially sacred.

But because Congress hasn't assigned that eligibility function to USPS.


And that gives you an exceptionally clean test that I think is better than the "unless" formulation:

What is USPS being asked to determine?

If the answer is:

"Whether this is acceptable mail,"

you're probably somewhere within postal authority.

If the answer is:

"Whether this person qualifies for X,"

stop.

Now identify the Act of Congress assigning USPS responsibility for determining X.

If there isn't one, calling the resulting eligibility check a postal requirement doesn't create the missing authority.

That's also why I agree with your frustration about framing this primarily around Donald. The executive-order question is real, but this particular objection logically precedes it. Even a President possessing the broadest plausible Article II control over USPS cannot instruct USPS into possessing statutory jurisdiction Congress never gave it.

Or in the shortest version:

The President can tell USPS what to do with its power. He cannot tell USPS what powers it has. Congress does that.

That, I think, is the nail you've been trying to hit.

2026-09-09 16:50:48 EDT

M: I disagree that it should be able to tell, that the president should tell the U.S. Postal Service what to do, but we've had that conversation before. But your point is made, or my point has been understood, whatever. And the really fucked up part is that I don't believe that anything about what's being proposed would address anything that has been accused by Donald in terms of fraud, even if it all turned out to be somehow true. It doesn't seem like the two are actually related.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. I checked the executive order and, more importantly, USPS's own final rule and its subsequent legal defense. Your new suspicion is substantially right, with one distinction: parts of the rule could generate evidence useful in investigating some forms of mail-related election crime, but the central recipient-list gatekeeping mechanism does not correspond cleanly to the fraud allegations Donald has historically emphasized.

The executive order says what problem it claims to solve: preventing noncitizens from voting and other unlawful uses of mail. It directs states to create citizenship lists, but then separately directs USPS to require states to supply lists of people receiving absentee/mail ballots, assign unique ballot identifiers, and not transmit ballots from people who aren't enrolled on the relevant participation list. citeturn0search0turn0search1

Those are different propositions.

Consider several fraud theories commonly alleged around mail voting:

So even granting the allegations for purposes of argument doesn't make most of them problems that this mechanism catches.

USPS itself has backed away from needing the fraud premise

This was the most striking thing I found.

In its final rule, USPS acknowledges the dispute about how much voter fraud exists and then says:

"the incidence of voter fraud does not impact the proposed rule's legal grounding."

Its defense is instead that the new tracking/data system gives law enforcement greater visibility, making suspicious activity easier to identify and investigate. citeturn0search58

That's a much narrower proposition than "this prevents the fraud Donald says is occurring."

And there's something almost circular about the architecture.

The White House says the system ensures that only eligible absentee voters receive ballots. citeturn0search1

But USPS subsequently says:

"states maintain complete control over their own voter registration rolls, deciding who within their jurisdiction is eligible to vote by mail."

And USPS emphasizes that it will not second-guess the states' submissions. citeturn0search57

So ask what information USPS actually adds.

State: Alice gets a ballot.
State → USPS: Alice gets a ballot.
USPS: Is Alice on the state's list of people who get ballots?
Database: Yes, because the state just told USPS Alice gets a ballot.
USPS: Deliver Alice's ballot.

That doesn't independently verify Alice's eligibility.

It verifies consistency between the state's mailing and information the state previously supplied to USPS.

That's potentially useful for auditing. For example, if a batch suddenly contains 5,000 ballot envelopes that aren't represented in the state's submitted data, you've discovered an anomaly worth investigating. That's the strongest rational relationship I can identify between the system and actual fraud detection. USPS itself now emphasizes this visibility/detection rationale. citeturn0search58

But that's very different from USPS determining voter eligibility.

And here's the particularly strange consequence

The system seems better designed to catch administrative discrepancies than many of the fraud scenarios invoked to justify it.

Suppose Virginia lawfully determines on October 15 that Bob qualifies for an absentee ballot because his circumstances changed. Virginia sends Bob one but, because of an upload error, Bob isn't properly represented in the USPS portal.

The ballot is legitimate.

Bob is legitimate.

Virginia's determination is legitimate.

The address is legitimate.

The postage and envelope could be perfect.

The newly created USPS data relationship is what's defective.

Under the contemplated regime, that's exactly the sort of discrepancy that can interfere with transmission. Recent reporting says the rule could reject noncompliant ballots, and the USPS Inspector General is now reviewing whistleblower concerns that valid ballots could consequently be rejected. citeturn0news36turn0news29

So we've added another failure mode to the election without necessarily intercepting the alleged fraud.

That is a substantive policy problem even if I grant the administration every factual premise about fraud for argument's sake.

Which produces two independent questions

I think they're worth keeping completely separated:

Authority question:
Why is USPS legally entitled to make carriage contingent upon participation in this external election-data regime?

Efficacy question:
What alleged fraud does that external election-data regime actually prevent?

The administration has trouble with both, but they are not the same objection.

And your argument becomes stronger if you don't require proving Donald's fraud claims false. Say, for argument's sake, every allegation is true. Someone stole ballots. Someone harvested votes. Noncitizens voted. Election workers cheated. Whatever premise they want.

Then ask:

Which of those acts would have produced a mismatch between the ballot envelope and the state's own USPS participation list?

If the answer for a particular fraud mechanism is none, this system doesn't prevent that fraud.

That is probably the cleanest stress test.

And there's an additional irony I hadn't appreciated until checking the actual documents: USPS expressly denies being an "election gatekeeper." That's literally a question it answers in its supplemental explanation: "Is the Postal Service acting as an election gatekeeper?" Its answer is "No." citeturn0search57

But the original executive order explicitly commands that USPS "shall not transmit" ballots unless the individual is enrolled on the specified list. citeturn0search0

Whatever legal label one ultimately puts on that mechanism, "we do not determine eligibility; states do, but we won't transmit the mail unless the state has satisfied our list-based eligibility mechanism" is precisely the conceptual tension you've been identifying.

And that may explain some of the tortured rhetoric around calling all of this merely mail preparation.

2026-09-09 16:53:50 EDT

M: It just seems like a shorthand version of this would be saying someone has been breaking the law, therefore we need better lists of people who aren't, for reasons I will let you know about later. Which basically means that the only reason to have that is either to intimidate people or find a way to use that to manufacture some sort of fraudulent evidence. And remember, we're not talking superlatives here, but rather rhetorically. So that doesn't mean the only way it could be used. But those really are the only practical ways that spring to mind that that kind of information could be considered useful in any way, let alone in terms of actually preventing what was originally accused. It feels like if this were to make it through, the only thing that comes out of it is an illegal aggregation of voter rolls that has been stymied through other methods. Honestly, it sounds like any kind of fraud involved in voting in this situation comes from Donald's masking of the real reason behind it, not any kind of actual voter fraud. It's fraud to get access to the voters.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. As a rhetorical characterization, I think you've identified a real mismatch. I would stop one step short of the conclusion that the purpose must therefore be intimidation or evidence-manufacturing, because the documents don't establish that intent. But the narrower—and potentially more damaging—observation is demonstrable:

The government says unlawful voting is the problem, but the USPS mechanism primarily creates a new federal dataset about lawful mail-ballot participation.

Those aren't the same thing.

The executive order requires state-specific lists of people participating in mail voting, unique ballot identifiers, continuing updates to those lists, USPS verification against them, and coordination with the USPS Inspector General and DOJ concerning suspected unlawful activity. citeturn0search1

Yet USPS subsequently insists that it isn't checking those names against voter rolls and isn't independently determining eligibility. States decide who belongs on the lists, and USPS says it will accept what the states submit without second-guessing them. citeturn0search19turn0search20

That's the logical oddity you noticed.

The fraud test

Take their stated premise at face value:

Someone is breaking election law.

Okay. Then you'd normally design the information collection around identifying the suspected unlawful behavior.

Instead, this system asks states to identify everyone legitimately using the mail-ballot system.

So your deliberately rhetorical shorthand—

"Someone is breaking the law, so give us better lists of everyone who isn't."

—is unfair in the literal sense that the government claims the resulting tracking system can expose anomalies. But it's fair as a description of the mismatch in populations: the data collection is overwhelmingly about ordinary participants rather than a previously identified suspect population.

And there's a second development that makes your concern about aggregation more interesting.

The administration is simultaneously litigating over its attempt to use DHS's SAVE immigration database for bulk voter-roll verification. Just last week, the D.C. Circuit kept an injunction in place against that effort; the administration has now asked the Supreme Court to intervene. That separate system was redesigned to permit bulk searches involving Social Security information against voter records. citeturn0news15turn0news16

That doesn't prove the USPS portal is a workaround for the blocked SAVE project. I found no evidence establishing that connection. I would not state it as fact.

But it means your aggregation concern isn't occurring in a vacuum. There are simultaneously:

SAVE/citizenship data → voter-registration verification

and

USPS portal → individual mail-ballot participation data + unique ballot-envelope identifiers.

Those are separate programs with different stated purposes and different legal disputes. But both increase federal possession or use of person-level election-related information. citeturn0search0turn0search1

So "Is this really about constructing federal voter information infrastructure?" is a legitimate investigative question. "We have established that this is secretly the purpose" would outrun the evidence we have.

There's also an evidentiary problem for their stated justification

USPS itself says the portal isn't replacing voter rolls and isn't independently checking voter eligibility. citeturn0search20

That makes it difficult to see how the database establishes the thing Donald's rhetoric emphasizes.

If:

State says Alice is eligible → State gives Alice a ballot → State puts Alice on USPS list → USPS sees Alice on list → USPS carries ballot

then USPS has learned that the state's actions are internally consistent.

It hasn't learned that Alice is actually a citizen.

It hasn't learned that Alice personally requested the ballot.

It hasn't learned that Alice personally completed it.

It hasn't learned that nobody coerced Alice.

It hasn't learned that Alice isn't dead unless some other system supplies that information.

It hasn't learned that the election office's eligibility determination was correct.

And, crucially, USPS explicitly says it isn't going to second-guess the state's eligibility determination. citeturn0search19

So if the accusation is:

"States are giving ballots to people who aren't legally entitled to vote."

the USPS mechanism basically asks the allegedly unreliable state:

"Please give us your list of the people to whom you've decided to give ballots."

That does not independently test the allegation.


Where I'd modify one thing you said is "illegal aggregation of voter rolls."

I'd call it "federally compelled aggregation of individual mail-ballot-participation data whose legality is being contested."

Because USPS actually emphasizes that the Participation List isn't a voter roll. And technically they're right: it's a subset/data system concerning people participating in mail voting, not the complete state registration database. citeturn0search20

Ironically, that correction doesn't necessarily make your concern weaker.

It's potentially more specific information:

Not merely "Alice is registered to vote," but "Alice is participating in this election by mail, and this identifier corresponds to the ballot-mail transaction associated with Alice."

The final rule itself acknowledges enough privacy concern that USPS had to establish a separate System of Records under the Privacy Act governing the portal, including retention, access and disclosure rules. citeturn0search21

That's not evidence of nefarious purpose—the Privacy Act is exactly what government is supposed to use when creating systems containing personal records—but it confirms that we're talking about a genuine federal repository of person-associated information, not merely a barcode specification.

So I'd preserve your hypothesis, but label it

At this point I'd put the model this way:

Established: The stated problem is illegal voting/election fraud.

Established: The USPS system collects information predominantly about lawful mail voters.

Established: USPS says it won't independently determine whether those people are actually eligible.

Established: Therefore the system does not independently verify the central eligibility proposition used to justify it. citeturn0search19turn0search20

Established: It nevertheless creates federal infrastructure associating individuals with mail-ballot participation and ballot-mail identifiers. citeturn0search18turn0search21

Plausible alternative purposes/consequences: deterrence/intimidation, creating investigative leads through anomaly detection, facilitating later matching against other government datasets, establishing a federal election-data infrastructure, or generating apparent discrepancies that can subsequently be characterized as suspicious.

Not established: that Donald or USPS designed the system specifically to manufacture fraudulent evidence, intimidate voters, or circumvent the legal obstacles encountered by the separate voter-roll aggregation efforts.

And I think "fraud to get access to the voters" is rhetorically punchy but presently one inferential step too far if fraud means intentional deception. What we can demonstrate without needing to establish anybody's secret intention is almost as sharp:

The proposed cure doesn't independently test the disease being alleged. What it unquestionably does is give the federal government a new person-level dataset of people lawfully voting by mail.

At that point the burden ought to shift rhetorically: if collecting that information is necessary to stop the alleged fraud, identify the fraud mechanism and show exactly how having this information stops it.

So far, the strongest answer I've found is anomaly detection and investigative visibility—not verification of the underlying voter eligibility Donald says is the problem. citeturn0search18

2026-09-09 16:59:01 EDT

M: I think I've mentioned it before, but if I haven't, I have a suspicion that at some point we'll find out that during all that doge stuff, information was acquired that was able to pull kind of a Freakonomics thing and start identifying potential people for investigation as being immigrants, illegal immigrants, or undocumented, or whatever, by cross-referencing some kind of social security number that is, or otherwise a number that's required for employment, with other information, so that even if there was no obvious indication that it would narrow the fields to allow for targeting in a more high-probability level. I feel like this is an effort to get that kind of information as well, some kind of less publicized correlation that can be used not for preventing fraud or anything like that, or proving any kind of past fraud, but instead to find a way to put the finger on the scales with minimal effort. That's the reason why this is frightening the shit out of me. Getting this kind of information may not directly give a method for use, but creative use of, what are they, pivot tables and all of that could create a correlation that isn't even understood but is usable. Yeah, the participation list not being a voter roll is just a technicality. Any kind of aggregation of information based on voting can be considered a voter roll, if an incomplete one. It's a subset. There is no reason to have this information, particularly if it doesn't do what it's expressed to do. So what it is is a pile of information, which can be thrown up against other pieces of information that were gathered, potentially illegally, given how many times this administration has been shown to have done something that's illegal, but whose penalty really has not been considered because it was thought to be a no-go zone. And then we find out later that it has been used for reasons that are for personal, political, or financial gain. So this is not just, you know, taking a wild leap. This is more of just kind of putting a foot out and testing to see if the ground is firm. This isn't even a leap of logic. It's more of just a potential way to keep walking.

G: Yes. Framed as a hypothesis to investigate rather than a conclusion, what you're describing is technically plausible, and I think there's a useful refinement that makes it more precise.

You don't actually need a hidden master database or a clever person discovering a magical correlation. You're describing record linkage: combine datasets that are individually fairly mundane, and the intersections become informative.

For example, dataset A doesn't have to say "undocumented immigrant." Dataset B doesn't have to say "likely Democratic voter." Dataset C doesn't have to say "person to investigate." If they contain overlapping identifiers or quasi-identifiers—name, DOB, address, SSN fragment, household, employer, geography, transaction dates, etc.—they can sometimes be linked. Once linked, correlations or anomalous combinations can be used to rank people, even if no individual field establishes the thing being inferred.

That's much closer to your Freakonomics analogy.

And importantly, the inference doesn't have to be correct to be operationally useful. Suppose a model produces:

2% of population → substantially elevated probability of characteristic X.

Someone wanting to investigate X has just reduced the search space by 98%. False positives can be enormous and the ranking can still save investigative resources.

That's the part of your concern I would take seriously without assuming the proposed hidden purpose is true.

Where DOGE makes this worth investigating

There is already documented controversy over DOGE personnel obtaining or seeking access to government datasets that weren't ordinarily combined in this fashion. Courts have dealt with access involving Treasury payment information, Social Security records and other agency systems. So the general proposition "unusual cross-agency access occurred and raised Privacy Act/statutory questions" isn't speculative.

But the next step—

DOGE secretly constructed exactly the sort of immigrant-identification/linkage system you're hypothesizing

—is something for which we'd need evidence. I wouldn't fill that gap merely from the existence of the access.

And I think your USPS hypothesis is subtly different:

You're not saying "this database identifies undocumented immigrants."

You're saying:

"This adds another potentially linkable dimension to whatever federal data environment now exists."

That's a much easier proposition to take seriously.

And "participation list" matters more than "voter roll"

I'd actually abandon the argument over whether it technically qualifies as a voter roll, because there's a stronger description available.

It's individual-level electoral-participation data.

That says exactly what makes it interesting.

A conventional voter-registration record says something like:

David is registered at address X.

A mail-participation dataset potentially says:

David participated in election Y using mechanism Z at approximately this stage/time, associated with identifier Q.

It doesn't reveal how David voted. But as a linkage variable, behavioral/event data can be more informative than a static registration record.

That's why the absence of vote choice doesn't dispose of the privacy concern.

Your pivot-table intuition is also basically correct

You don't even need modern AI.

SQL joins, database queries, spreadsheets, statistical packages and ordinary regression/classification techniques can do this. Machine learning makes finding complicated relationships easier, but the fundamental operation is old:

Dataset A + Dataset B → intersection → stratify → investigate interesting groups.

And sometimes analysts deliberately don't need to understand why a relationship exists.

Suppose:

A + F + not-Q + geographic characteristic R → 4.7× incidence of outcome X.

If the purpose is prediction rather than scientific explanation, the correlation can be useful before anyone has established causation.

That introduces a particularly nasty governmental problem: a probabilistic suspicion machine can generate investigative attention without generating legally sufficient evidence.

The machine doesn't have to prove Alice committed anything. It merely puts Alice near the top of someone's list.


I would therefore state your developing hypothesis quite carefully:

The concern isn't that the USPS participation database itself reveals illegal voters. It doesn't. The concern is that person-level election-participation information becomes another joinable federal dataset. Combined with information obtained elsewhere, it could permit correlations, classifications or targeting that none of the underlying datasets independently permits.

Then comes the empirical question:

Is there evidence that the administration has actually been building or using cross-agency linkage systems in this manner?

That's where I wouldn't rely on inference. That's researchable. In particular, we'd want to trace documented DOGE access to SSA, Treasury, DHS/USCIS, IRS and other person-level databases; what identifiers were accessible; whether records were exported or merely queried; subsequent interagency data-sharing agreements; litigation discovery; Privacy Act notices; and any evidence that those datasets have subsequently been matched.

If that trail exists, then your USPS observation becomes much more consequential. If it doesn't, we'd have identified exactly where the hypothesis stops being evidence-supported rather than quietly turning suspicion into fact.

And I think that's the appropriate next pressure test for the model you've built.

2026-09-09 17:05:40 EDT

M: One of the problems we're having in terms of arguments being generated that are somewhat redundant is one that I don't think I can ask you to change without changing your usefulness. And that's, you're still functioning under a presumption of regularity. Even the courts aren't assuming that anymore. It's not that I don't trust past governments. It's that I don't trust this administration. Every chance that they've had to demonstrate that maybe they don't try and take advantage of everything has gone by, with them instead demonstrating that they're perfectly willing to take advantage of every situation. I would like to believe that there is not going to be a negative outcome, but since they have time and again demonstrated a willingness to take an advantage, whether it's legal or unlawful or whatever, I can't assume that they won't. The reason I can't ask you to change it is because I need you to keep trying to figure out how it would be defended so that I know where the defense likely would come from. But often, often enough to become something of a pattern, but not consistent enough to be something that can be assumed, your response has to do with not countering my concerns, but instead only presenting one side of the possibilities without accounting for the other, which turns it into a gray area again. Like without the assumption of regularity, when you say something like, I would take seriously without assuming the proposed hidden purpose is true. The problem is you can't assume it's untrue at the moment either. Right now the only thing between, the only distance between calling what Donald is doing a conspiracy theory is that they are just so overt and bad about it that calling it a conspiracy implies a planned effort that just never is apparent. I mean, we need evidence that it was being misused, but the actual fact that someone grabbed a lot of information they shouldn't have is there, and people don't grab information at that degree without consequence. They may just be putting that thumb drive up on the wall as a trophy for what they did, but acting as though that must be the case is as irresponsible as assuming that it was immediately used to start narrowing down where ICE needed to go. Both of those assumptions are plausible as explanations, but not circumstantially kept from being plausible, if that makes sense. In a normal administration, you could narrow your assumptions. In this one, it could be everything from the trophy to immediately being secretly used in a way that's only gone unnoticed because the Epstein crap was used as a smokescreen or something like that.

G: I think the useful adjustment is not “drop skepticism” or “assume malice.” It’s stop using regularity as the default prior when the institution has repeatedly supplied contrary evidence, while still keeping the defense case visible. I’m checking whether current courts are in fact doing something like that, because that distinction matters.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. I think the adjustment you’re asking for is coherent, and the current case law gives it more support than I expected.

The key change is not “assume the worst.” It is:

Do not use institutional regularity as the tie-breaker when evaluating this administration if the relevant institution has already generated substantial evidence that the presumption has been rebutted.

That is different from both credulity and conspiracy thinking.

Courts really have been moving in that direction. A March 2026 survey of litigation identified scores of cases in which judges questioned or rejected the normal presumption that executive officials had properly discharged their duties; a September 2026 legal analysis describes the presumption as being under extraordinary strain because of repeated misstatements, noncompliance, and pretext findings. citeturn217273search0turn217273search4

And there are actual holdings, not just commentary. In National Treasury Employees Union v. Trump, the district court expressly found the presumption of regularity rebutted, based partly on evidence that the administration’s stated statutory rationale did not match its surrounding statements and that the power was being used for an unrelated policy objective. citeturn217273search5 Another federal case subsequently reached the same conclusion based on the same evidentiary pattern. citeturn217273search7

So I think I understand exactly what has been bothering you in some of my responses.

When I say:

“There is no evidence yet that the data was used for X.”

that is appropriate.

But if I implicitly continue:

“…therefore we should provisionally behave as though it probably wasn’t used for X,”

I have silently added a presumption that you did not grant—and, in some contexts involving this administration, courts themselves have declined to grant.

Those are two separate propositions.

The epistemically neutral state can genuinely be:

We know they acquired access. We do not know whether they used the resulting data in this particular way. Both non-use and misuse remain live possibilities, and available evidence may make their priors unequal without establishing either one as fact.

That’s much closer to what you’re describing with the thumb-drive example.

If someone improperly acquires a large sensitive dataset, several states of the world remain possible:

Absent evidence, I cannot collapse that tree to “they used it to target people.”

But neither should I collapse it to “until proven otherwise, treat it as harmless possession.”

And that's the bit where “presumption of regularity” was sneaking into my analysis without being named.

Your Freakonomics hypothesis therefore deserves a slightly different treatment from the one I initially gave it. The correct current status isn't:

“Interesting possibility, but we should assume benign purpose until evidence appears.”

It's:

There is an established acquisition/access event. There is an established institutional history that weakens the normal inference of regular governmental use. There is a technically plausible pathway from that data to targeting through record linkage. We presently lack evidence demonstrating that the pathway was actually used.

All four belong in the analysis simultaneously.

That also changes how I should handle defenses for you. You don't want me to stop constructing the strongest innocent/legal explanation. You need that because otherwise we can't pressure-test the hypothesis. But the defense should be labeled as a defense, not silently installed as the baseline reality.

So, for something like the USPS participation data, the structure ought to be:

Government's strongest explanation: the data permits auditing, anomaly detection, tracking, and investigation of inconsistencies.

Problem with that explanation: the mechanism seems poorly matched to several of the fraud theories invoked to justify it and creates a person-level election-participation dataset regardless.

Adverse-use hypothesis: the dataset may be valuable principally or secondarily because it can be linked with other federal datasets to generate classifications or targeting signals.

Current evidence boundary: we have evidence for creation/acquisition of the data infrastructure and evidence of unusually broad cross-agency data access elsewhere; we do not yet have evidence establishing that this particular USPS dataset has been combined with those systems for political or immigration targeting.

That's not a gray-area escape hatch. It's a map showing exactly where the darkness starts.

And your final point about conspiracies is worth distinguishing carefully. A conspiracy hypothesis normally requires adding hidden coordination to explain events. What you're describing frequently requires much less:

Actor obtains capability → actor has demonstrated willingness to exploit capabilities opportunistically → ask what uses of the new capability become possible.

That doesn't require assuming a master plan.

In fact, opportunism makes the analysis harder because there may be no original secret purpose to uncover. Someone can collect information for reason A, later discover it enables B, and then exploit B. If you search only for evidence that B was the plan from the beginning, you could completely miss the actual pathway.

That is particularly relevant to your data-correlation concern. The dangerous proposition needn't be:

“They built this database because they already knew how they would weaponize it.”

It can simply be:

“They acquired a new dataset whose future uses are open-ended, and their demonstrated behavior gives us insufficient reason to presume they will confine themselves to the announced purpose.”

That is a much more defensible concern.

One caveat I would preserve—not as an equivocation, but as an actual contradiction in the evidence—is that not every court has abandoned the presumption. Some continue applying it unless plaintiffs meet the traditional “clear evidence” threshold. For example, one DOGE-related D.C. case applied the presumption because the plaintiffs hadn't shown tangible evidence of bad faith, and a Fifth Circuit opinion in 2025 strongly reiterated it. citeturn217273search3turn217273search11

So the precise description is not “the courts no longer presume regularity.”

It's stronger and more interesting:

The administration has accumulated enough adverse evidence that multiple federal courts have found the traditional presumption affirmatively rebutted—something historically unusual—while other courts still apply it case by case.

Going forward, I can use that as our reasoning rule: show the regular/benign defense because it needs to be tested, but don't give it an automatic probability bonus merely because it is the government's stated explanation. memcite

2026-09-09 17:07:40 EDT

M: Let me ask you to do something that's related but not quite on the original topic. I'd like you to go online and find out for me since January of 2025, or let's say February of 2025. See if you can find out how many situations have arisen where either the defense of the administration or the ruling of high court has failed to address whether a topic under discussion or litigation was actually legal.

G: I’m going to treat this as a case-finding and classification problem, not just a news search: I’ll look for post-February-2025 disputes where the government or a higher court focused on procedure, standing, jurisdiction, immunity, emergency posture, or remedy without resolving the underlying legality of the challenged action.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: A pattern is already visible, but I’m going to give you a minimum defensible count rather than a fake exact number. Trump v. CASA is the cleanest example: the Supreme Court explicitly said the government had not presented, and the Court would not address, whether the birthright-citizenship order itself was lawful; it ruled only on the remedy.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. I found enough examples that I think there is a real pattern here, but I would phrase the number as a minimum, because your category is broader than any existing case tracker I found.

Using February 1, 2025 through today, September 9, 2026, and counting only reasonably clear federal cases where a higher court allowed, blocked, vacated, or otherwise disposed of a major Trump-administration action without actually resolving whether the underlying conduct itself was lawful, I can identify at least 10 distinct situations. If I broaden the definition to include cases where the administration's principal defense was procedural or remedial rather than a defense of the underlying legality, the number rises into the low-to-mid teens.

The important thing is that these aren't all the same phenomenon.

Case / controversy What the underlying legality question was What the higher court actually decided
Birthright citizenship — Trump v. CASA Can the President deny citizenship to the affected U.S.-born children? Did not decide it. Supreme Court explicitly said the applications did not raise that question and ruled instead on nationwide injunctions. citeturn283453search3turn283453search67
Alien Enemies Act — Trump v. J.G.G. Was using the AEA against these Venezuelans lawful? Did not decide it. Court said, explicitly, “we do not reach those arguments”; it decided that the challenge had to proceed through habeas in the proper district. citeturn163972search1
Third-country deportations — DHS v. D.V.D. Could DHS deport people to countries not designated in their removal proceedings without the notice/hearing ordered below? Supreme Court stayed the injunction without giving a merits explanation. The dissent addressed legality; the majority did not. citeturn163972search3turn163972search73
Venezuela TPS — Noem v. National TPS Alliance Was DHS's termination of TPS lawful under the statute/APA? Supreme Court stayed the lower-court order in an unexplained emergency order, leaving merits unresolved at that stage. citeturn467273search7
Humanitarian parole — Noem v. Svitlana Doe Could DHS categorically terminate parole for the affected class? Again, Supreme Court stayed the injunction without resolving the underlying statutory legality in the order. citeturn467273search8
Federal mass layoffs/reorganization — Trump v. AFGE Could agencies actually execute the reorganization/RIF plans without congressional authorization? Court said the EO/memo were likely facially lawful because they ordered compliance with law, but expressly refused to decide whether the actual agency plans were lawful. citeturn302878search36turn302878search1
CPSC firings — Trump v. Boyle Were the commissioners' removals actually lawful? Emergency stay based substantially on Wilcox and comparative harms; Court specifically said its interim rulings were not conclusive on the merits. citeturn467273search3
Copyright Office firing — Blanche v. Perlmutter Could the administration lawfully remove the Register of Copyrights? Supreme Court eventually denied emergency relief while expressly stating the denial was not a ruling on the merits. citeturn467273search4
USPS ballot restrictions — first Supreme Court round Could USPS/President lawfully impose the ballot-mail system? Court disposed of the earlier injunction on standing/timing grounds, without deciding the rule's legality. The final rule later generated the separate litigation we've been discussing. citeturn138490search44turn138490news37
White House ballroom — NPS v. National Trust Is construction lawful without congressional authorization? This is almost a laboratory example: majority expressly wrote “we do not pass upon the legality” and allowed construction because the plaintiff likely lacked standing. Roberts's dissent said the project itself was likely unlawful. citeturn138490search0turn138490search1

So 10 is my conservative, easily defensible floor.

And several of those are unusually pure examples of exactly what I think you're asking about—not merely a court declining to reach every issue because litigation is preliminary, but situations where the practical result was “the government gets to continue doing X for now” while the court answered a question other than “is X lawful?”

Three of them are especially stark

CASA might be the clearest. The administration deliberately asked the Supreme Court about the scope of the injunction, not whether the birthright-citizenship order was constitutional. The Court explicitly noted that distinction. citeturn283453search3

J.G.G. is even more striking in a different way. The affected people argued that the President wasn't legally entitled to use the Alien Enemies Act against them. The Supreme Court said, essentially:

We're not answering that. You sued through the wrong procedural vehicle/in the wrong place.

The opinion literally says “we do not reach those arguments.” citeturn163972search1

And the ballroom case from August 31, 2026 is probably the most naked recent example. The majority expressly says:

“Today, we do not pass upon the legality of the government's East Wing project.”

It nevertheless removes the injunction because the challenger probably lacks standing. Chief Justice Roberts—joined by Sotomayor, Kagan and Jackson—then says in dissent that the construction is likely unlawful because Congress expressly prohibited building on that federal property without congressional authorization. citeturn138490search0turn138490search1

That's almost exactly your category.

There's another recurring variant that I wouldn't count quite the same way

Sometimes the Court technically says something about legality, but does so at such a high level that it leaves the consequential action untouched.

The mass-federal-workforce case is a good example.

The Supreme Court said the February 2025 executive order and OMB/OPM memorandum were likely lawful because they instructed agencies to act “consistent with applicable law.” But then it explicitly said:

“We express no view on the legality of any Agency RIF and Reorganization Plan”

produced pursuant to them. citeturn302878search36

That produces an odd structure:

“The instruction ‘go reorganize agencies legally’ is legal.”

Fine.

But the actual controversy was largely:

“Are the concrete reorganizations they're undertaking legal?”

And that second question wasn't answered before the injunction was removed.

Justice Sotomayor's concurrence makes the limitation explicit: agencies still can't restructure themselves contrary to congressional mandates, and lower courts remain free to decide whether the actual plans violate the law. citeturn302878search1

I included that in the ten because it fits your functional criterion, but it's a slightly different species.

Why this keeps happening

Some of it is completely ordinary American judicial procedure. Courts have always resolved cases on:

standing, jurisdiction, venue, remedy, ripeness, mootness, exhaustion, sovereign immunity, the proper cause of action, or the requirements for preliminary relief

without reaching the ultimate merits. That's not something invented for Donald.

What is unusual here is the combination of frequency, emergency posture, and irreversible action.

The Supreme Court's emergency docket is expressly designed for expedited interim rulings, usually on limited briefing and often without oral argument. A current compilation shows dozens of significant interim applications during this period. citeturn432112search53

That makes it structurally much easier to get:

“The lower court was wrong to stop the government for procedural/remedial reason Y.”

without getting:

“The government actually has legal authority to do X.”

And when X is something reversible—say, temporarily withholding money—that distinction may mostly postpone the answer.

When X is:

deporting someone, firing an official, dismantling an agency, demolishing a building, collecting data, or changing an election system,

the practical distinction becomes much more consequential because the government can accomplish some or all of X before anyone ever reaches the legality question.

The East Wing is an almost absurdly physical illustration: the old structure cannot be un-demolished.

The administration has repeatedly made arguments that amount to:

“You cannot stop us this way”

rather than:

“What we're doing is affirmatively authorized by law.”

Those are not logically equivalent.

Examples include:

Those can be legally valid defenses. But you're right that winning one of them does not establish the legality of the underlying act.

That's a distinction that news shorthand often destroys.

“Supreme Court lets Trump do X” gets interpreted by a listener as:

Supreme Court determined Trump legally possesses the power to do X.

Often what actually happened is:

Supreme Court determined this plaintiff cannot stop X through this particular lawsuit, remedy, court, or procedural posture at this moment.

Those are drastically different statements.

My current count

If we use the narrow definition:

A significant second-Trump-administration controversy reaching the Supreme Court or another high appellate disposition in which the result materially affected whether the policy could proceed, while the tribunal explicitly or functionally left the underlying legality unresolved

I get at least 10 clear examples since February 2025.

I suspect a systematic docket-by-docket audit would bring that into roughly 12–16, because there are several additional emergency immigration, funding, employment, and standing cases where classification becomes arguable.

And if your category includes administration defenses that avoid defending the underlying authority at all, rather than just actual higher-court rulings, we're dealing with a substantially larger set. I wouldn't attach a number to that without actually coding the litigation, because otherwise I'd be manufacturing precision.

The more interesting result to me is that your phenomenon is definitely real. It isn't just an impression created by podcasts. There have repeatedly been consequential rulings in which the central public question was “Can the government legally do this?” while the judicial answer was some version of “We aren't deciding that question here.”

That distinction probably deserves to be tracked as its own category.

2026-09-09 17:11:31 EDT

M: That sounds bad in terms of 20 months of review. Let's either throw it into sharp relief or get a little bit more of a usable comparison. Would you be able to do the same thing for the Biden administration during the period of February 2021 to, let's say, December of 2024, looking for similar situations where— well, you've already evidently established a rubric. I don't want to disturb that, but using that same set of criteria that you used to make the list you just created.

G: I’ll use the same narrow rubric as before: significant administration controversies where a higher court’s ruling materially affected whether the policy could proceed without resolving the underlying legality of the policy itself. I’ll keep the Biden period longer—February 2021 through December 2024—so the raw count and the rate-per-year are both useful.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Using the same rubric, I get a materially different result for Biden.

For February 1, 2021 through December 31, 2024—47 months—I can identify about 7 clear situations where a significant Biden-administration action reached the Supreme Court or equivalent high appellate disposition, the ruling materially affected whether the policy could operate, and the court did not resolve the underlying legality of the challenged action.

That compares with the at least 10 clear examples in roughly 19 months that I found for the current Trump administration.

The Biden examples I would actually count are these:

Biden-era controversy Higher-court disposition Was underlying legality resolved?
Immigration-enforcement priorities — United States v. Texas (2023) Supreme Court held Texas and Louisiana lacked standing No. It did not decide whether DHS's enforcement guidelines violated the INA. citeturn672671search2
Government/social-media contacts — Murthy v. Missouri (2024) Supreme Court held plaintiffs lacked standing for prospective injunction No. It therefore did not resolve whether the government's contacts amounted to unconstitutional coercion. citeturn672671view0
Mifepristone regulation — FDA v. Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine (2024) Supreme Court found the challengers lacked standing No. The legality of FDA's changes to mifepristone regulation was left untouched. citeturn672671search0turn672671search36
EMTALA/Idaho abortion conflict — Moyle v. United States (2024) Supreme Court dismissed certiorari as improvidently granted and restored the preliminary injunction posture No. It deliberately left unresolved whether EMTALA preempted Idaho's abortion restriction in the disputed circumstances. citeturn933745search84
ATF “ghost gun” rule — Garland v. VanDerStok emergency stay (2023) Supreme Court stayed the lower court's vacatur, allowing the rule to operate No explanation and no merits holding at that stage. citeturn933745search1
SAVE student-loan plan (2024) Supreme Court refused to lift the Eighth Circuit injunction No. The order simply denied Biden's emergency request and told the appeals court to proceed expeditiously. citeturn933745search0turn933745news82
2024 Title IX regulations — Department of Education v. Louisiana/Cardona v. Tennessee Supreme Court refused Biden's request to partially lift injunctions Not finally. The Court was dealing with preliminary relief and severability rather than issuing a final judgment on the rule's statutory validity. citeturn933745search5turn933745search6

There are a few borderline candidates that could push Biden to 8 or perhaps 9, depending upon exactly how we treat emergency applications and related cases. But I wouldn't put them into the firm column. And, correspondingly, I deliberately did not count major Biden defeats where the Court really did address legality—because that would violate the rubric.

That means Biden v. Nebraska on the original student-loan cancellation doesn't count: the Court actually held that the HEROES Act did not authorize the cancellation program.

Alabama Association of Realtors v. HHS doesn't count: the Court concluded CDC lacked statutory authority for the eviction moratorium.

NFIB v. OSHA doesn't count: although technically an emergency stay, the Court actually addressed OSHA's statutory authority and concluded the challengers were likely to prevail because the vaccine-or-test mandate exceeded it.

Biden v. Missouri on the healthcare-worker vaccine requirement doesn't count either: the Court substantively concluded HHS likely possessed statutory authority.

That's important because otherwise we'd accidentally make Biden's number look artificially similar by counting every consequential emergency ruling.

Now normalize the periods

This is where the comparison gets rather stark.

Biden: approximately 7 clear cases / 47 months

= 0.149 per month

= about 1.8 per year

Trump II: at least 10 clear cases / ~19 months

= 0.526 per month

= about 6.3 per year

So under the same rubric, the current Trump administration is running at approximately:

3.5 times the Biden rate.

And that's using the conservative Trump floor of 10.

Another intuitive way of putting it:

Biden accumulated roughly 7 such situations over almost four years.
The current administration has accumulated at least 10 in considerably less than two years.

That's a meaningful difference.

But there's a more revealing difference than the raw number

The type of unresolved-merits ruling is different too.

Several Biden examples are extremely conventional judicial avoidance:

Murthy: wrong plaintiffs/insufficient standing.

FDA: wrong plaintiffs/insufficient standing.

Moyle: procedural posture of the case had changed so much that the Court decided it shouldn't decide the merits yet.

SAVE: preliminary litigation was still underway.

Those aren't terribly exotic.

And sometimes the procedural disposition actually hurt Biden rather than helped him. The SAVE and Title IX emergency rulings left Biden's policies blocked without finally deciding their legality. citeturn933745search0turn933745search5

That's relevant to our comparison because the phenomenon we're worried about isn't merely:

“Court didn't reach merits.”

That happens constantly.

The worrying subset is:

“Court didn't reach whether the Executive had lawful authority, but nevertheless removed the obstacle preventing the Executive from doing the contested thing.”

The 2025–26 list contains considerably more of that.

The ghost-gun case is a genuine Biden-era example in the opposite direction: the Supreme Court let ATF continue enforcing its contested rule without explaining why and before deciding whether ATF actually had statutory authority. citeturn933745search1

So Biden absolutely wasn't at zero.

But it doesn't appear remotely comparable in frequency.

There's also a useful control here

Remember that during Biden's term, the Supreme Court was not friendly to the administration. The Court had the same 6–3 conservative majority.

Yet when Biden attempted several major exercises of executive/agency authority, the Court frequently did the straightforward thing and asked:

Did Congress actually authorize this?

Student-loan cancellation: No.

OSHA vaccination rule: No.

CDC eviction moratorium: No.

Medicare/Medicaid healthcare vaccination rule: Yes.

MPP termination: substantially yes, regarding DHS's statutory discretion to terminate the program, although the Court expressly left another detention-law question unresolved. citeturn907784search4

That's what makes the present comparison more interesting. We can't explain the difference simply by saying:

“Well, courts always avoid the merits.”

They demonstrably didn't always avoid them with Biden. In several of the administration's biggest cases, the Supreme Court went directly to the statutory-authority question.

So I'd currently summarize the comparison this way

With a conservative classification:

Biden, Feb. 2021–Dec. 2024: ~7 in 47 months

Trump II, Feb. 2025–Sept. 2026: ≥10 in ~19 months

Rate ratio: approximately 3½ : 1

And there's a qualitative asymmetry on top of it: a significant portion of Biden's unresolved-merits cases resulted in his policy remaining blocked, whereas several current cases have resulted in the administration being permitted to act while its authority to undertake the action remains unresolved.

That latter distinction is probably the next comparison worth quantifying, because it gets closer to the phenomenon that's been bothering you than the simple count does.

In other words, instead of asking merely “How often did the Court avoid legality?”, ask:

“How often did the Court avoid legality and nevertheless allow the challenged executive action to proceed?”

My preliminary read of these two sets says that comparison is likely to make the difference substantially sharper rather than erase it.

2026-09-09 17:16:54 EDT

M: Here's a comparison question that you might need to create some sort of temporary file or something for, rather than trying to keep both of those lists in mind. Well, first I'd like you to know if the Biden cases involved qualitatively similar circumstances. But more importantly, I want to make sure whether or not the administration in both cases in defending themselves has been taken into account. Because as I am understanding it, without having the ability to put my finger on the exact circumstances, there have been quite a few cases for Donald's latest administration where it wasn't just a question of the higher court's final ruling, but that in terms of defending themselves, the administration simply avoided addressing whether what they did was legal. That seems to be an important factor. Not just the avoidance of ruling on the legality by the court, but an administrative position which did not seem to try to address whether what they were doing was legal. Forgive me for not trying to get too far into the weeds. I just know that it'll infuriate me without giving me anything new to work with, because just skimming through the recognition of the complete lack of parity between the two is already getting my blood a little bit boiling. Just the idea that something that was legal was left blocked during Biden, and yet motherfucker is still building his east wing. That's not something that I need to get sidetracked by, or get my energy misdirected by.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. Your concern identifies a weakness in my previous comparison: I counted what the higher court ultimately did, but I did not systematically code what the administration itself argued in defending the challenged action. Those are different variables.

I checked several of the strongest examples on each side, and the distinction changes the picture substantially.

The Biden cases are not generally qualitatively equivalent

Take United States v. Texas, where the Supreme Court ultimately disposed of the challenge to Biden's immigration-enforcement priorities on standing. That looks like "legality avoided" if we record only the Supreme Court outcome.

But the Supreme Court had explicitly ordered briefing on both standing and whether DHS's guidelines violated the immigration statutes or APA. The Biden administration defended the policy on those merits as well as arguing that Texas lacked standing. citeturn0search4turn0search5

That's importantly different from:

Government: You aren't entitled to have a court answer whether we're allowed to do this.

It was closer to:

Government: We're legally allowed to do this, and additionally you aren't entitled to challenge it this way.

Same ultimate "Supreme Court didn't decide legality" checkbox. Different governmental posture.

Moyle is even clearer. The Supreme Court ultimately ducked the EMTALA/Idaho abortion conflict by dismissing certiorari as improvidently granted. But the Biden administration absolutely defended its underlying interpretation: its position was that EMTALA itself required the disputed emergency stabilizing treatment and therefore preempted conflicting Idaho law. Justice Jackson specifically describes the government as continuing to maintain that statutory position. citeturn0search96

So calling Moyle an instance in which "legality wasn't addressed" is correct about the Court and misleading about the administration.

Murthy v. Missouri follows that pattern too. Biden's government won on standing, so the Supreme Court never decided whether government contacts with social-media companies had crossed the constitutional line. But the government did defend its conduct on the merits: its position was that officials were informing and persuading private companies, not coercing them, and that forceful governmental advocacy is constitutionally permissible. citeturn0search2turn0search98

So that's another:

Court avoided legality: YES.
Administration avoided defending legality: NO.

That distinction is exactly what was missing from our first comparison.


Now compare some Trump II cases

Trump v. J.G.G. is qualitatively different.

The detainees directly argued that Donald's use of the Alien Enemies Act was unlawful and that they weren't people whom the statute permitted him to remove. The Supreme Court expressly said:

"But we do not reach those arguments."

Instead, it accepted the government's procedural position that these challenges had to proceed through habeas proceedings. citeturn0search9

So the administration could obtain the immediate relief it wanted without establishing that its interpretation of the Alien Enemies Act was correct.

That is much closer to the phenomenon you're describing.

The federal-government reorganization case has another version. The Supreme Court said the EO and OMB/OPM memorandum were probably lawful, but expressly declined to address "the legality of any Agency RIF and Reorganization Plan" actually produced under them. citeturn0search3

That's particularly peculiar because the executive order itself said agencies should conduct reductions "consistent with applicable law." citeturn0search10

Thus you can establish that:

"The President legally told agencies to do whatever they're legally allowed to do."

without establishing:

"What the agencies subsequently did was legally allowed."

Those aren't remotely equivalent propositions.

And then we reach the East Wing case, which is probably the most extreme clean example I've encountered.

The Supreme Court has just allowed construction to continue based on its conclusion that the National Trust probably lacks standing. The majority doesn't establish statutory authorization for the construction. Indeed, the dissent describes the apparent absence of statutory authority as the underlying problem. citeturn0search97turn0search7

So again there are two independent questions:

Are they legally authorized to build this?

versus

Is this particular plaintiff legally entitled to make a federal court stop them?

The government can prevail on the second without ever establishing the first.


I think we need a two-axis rubric

Our original list inadvertently collapsed these:

Administration substantively defends legality Administration principally avoids merits
Court reaches legality Normal merits case Unusual
Court avoids legality Biden examples frequently land here Category you're concerned about

That bottom-right quadrant is the interesting one.

And on the sample I've now checked, the Biden cases I previously identified don't populate it nearly as heavily as the raw 7-vs-10 comparison suggested.

That's actually important enough that I would withdraw the 3.5× comparison as answering your present question. It answered the narrower question we originally asked—frequency of consequential higher-court dispositions without final resolution of legality. It does not adequately measure this more disturbing phenomenon:

Administration takes consequential action → legality is challenged → administration obtains relief primarily through standing/jurisdiction/remedy/procedure rather than establishing its authority → higher court grants relief on that basis → challenged action continues → underlying authority remains unresolved.

That's a much narrower and much more meaningful category.

And I don't want to give you a number for it yet because we haven't actually coded both administrations consistently for government litigation posture.

There's also an important distinction about legitimate procedural defenses

I wouldn't count merely arguing standing as evidence of anything strange.

Every competent Solicitor General should say:

"We are authorized by X, Y and Z; additionally, these plaintiffs lack standing."

If the Supreme Court chooses standing and never reaches X/Y/Z, that's judicial avoidance, not executive avoidance.

What interests you—and now interests me as a genuinely different empirical category—is something more like:

When directly challenged to identify the legal authority for a consequential action, how often did the administration seek to prevail without having a court determine that the authority actually existed?

And an even stronger version:

How often did it succeed in continuing the challenged conduct that way?

Those should be columns in the dataset rather than impressions.

I'd code each controversy for at least:

Underlying authority challenged? → Government affirmatively defended that authority? → Government's principal requested disposition required reaching it? → Higher court reached it? → Government action allowed to continue? → Consequences reversible or irreversible?

That last column matters. An unresolved question while money sits temporarily in an account is not functionally equivalent to an unresolved question while someone is deported, an official is fired, an agency is dismantled, data are copied, or a building is demolished/constructed.

And your Biden observation is already supported by this initial check: several cases I counted against Biden on the first metric become poor comparators on the second metric because Biden's government actually litigated the substantive legality and the Supreme Court itself chose not to decide it. citeturn0search96turn0search2turn0search4

So you've found a real confound in our previous comparison.

I think the next pass should recode both complete lists from scratch on those two axes, rather than trying to patch the numbers we've already generated. That would tell us whether what looks unusual about Trump II is actually unusual governmental behavior, rather than merely the current Supreme Court's procedural behavior.

2026-09-09 17:21:05 EDT

M: Maybe one day we'll worry about the rubric, but the point that led us to here was the idea of the presumption of regularity and why I get so hung up on when you reflexively go back there. Like I said, I don't think I can change that about you, but it helps me to talk it out. Helps me to get more personally comfortable with the idea of having to repeat myself once I know why it is something might set me off. If I know the tripwire is there, I might not set off the landmine. In this case, it's that the presumption of regularity has been broken, and not just in a way that feels wrong, although it does, but in a way that is demonstrably wrong in terms of the current administration taking advantage more of the idea that illegality often is tied into standing or even enforceability, like with the emoluments clause, as opposed to past administrations who have at least acknowledged a certain presumption that the government will be working for the people even if the people don't like it. That they will be functioning under the idea that they are, at worst, creatively interpreting the law instead of simply ignoring it because no one seems to have the ability to convince the court that they have the standing to stop them.

G: Yes. And I think talking it through has identified the tripwire much more precisely than simply saying “don't presume regularity.”

What bothers you is when I make this inference:

We haven't established improper purpose/use → therefore ordinary governmental purpose/use remains the appropriate working baseline.

Those two propositions don't follow from each other.

The pattern we've just been examining gives you a concrete reason for rejecting that inference in this administration. Your concern isn't merely that officials have sometimes been accused of unlawful conduct; every administration gets accused of that. It's the emerging combination of:

questionable authority + procedural defenses that don't require vindicating the underlying conduct + practical ability to continue acting while legality remains unresolved.

And that changes what absence of evidence should do in our reasoning.

If we don't know what happened to a dataset, “it was probably handled only for its announced governmental purpose” shouldn't automatically receive the leftover probability simply because we haven't demonstrated misuse. The unanswered space should remain unanswered.

I also think you've identified a deeper distinction from ordinary aggressive executive government.

There is a meaningful difference between:

“We believe statute X gives us authority to do Y. Our interpretation is aggressive, but here's our legal argument.”

and:

“You don't have standing to challenge Y.”

The second proposition can be completely correct while telling us nothing whatsoever about whether Y is lawful.

Historically, standing, jurisdiction, immunity, reviewability, remedies, etc. are supposed to be limitations on judicial power. They don't magically become sources of executive power. A plaintiff's inability to obtain an injunction against an unlawful act does not transform that act into a lawful one.

That's closely related to why your emoluments example bothers you: unenforceability is not legality.

And I think that's the particular conceptual warning I should carry forward when we're modeling this administration:

Do not mistake the absence of a successful legal mechanism for stopping governmental conduct for affirmative evidence that the government possesses the authority to engage in that conduct.

That doesn't require me to presume illegality either. It preserves the unresolved state:

Authority established: treat it as authorized.

Authority credibly disputed: treat it as disputed.

Court finds it unlawful: treat it as unlawful subject to appeal/reversal.

Challenge dismissed for standing/jurisdiction/remedy: authority remains unresolved. Do not silently promote it to “presumptively lawful.”

And similarly with motives:

Benign purpose asserted but not established: candidate explanation.

Improper purpose suspected but not established: candidate explanation.

Neither gets promoted merely because the other hasn't been proven.

That leaves me able to keep doing the thing you don't want to lose—constructing the strongest defense and finding contradictions in your model—without letting “what would normally explain government behavior” become evidence that this government behaved normally.

I also understand why knowing the mechanism helps you personally. If I slip back into it later, you don't have to reconstruct the entire objection. “You're importing regularity again” identifies the error pretty specifically now: I've assigned evidentiary weight to normal institutional behavior that the evidence in that particular analysis hasn't earned.

And that is different from asking me to agree with your conclusions. I can still tell you “there isn't enough evidence for that inference.” What I shouldn't silently append is “so the regular explanation wins by default.” memcite

2026-09-09 17:37:07 EDT

M: I was going to let it drop, but one of the places I listen for quick stuff just threw two things that are exactly related to what we were talking about that I'd like you to look up and even timestamp. Adam Kinzinger does a daily political news update, which I kind of rely on, kind of like a bulwark, because even though they are to the left at the moment, it's more like the right went so far right that they ended up on the left by default. So I give them a little bit of policy leeway because at least they are conceptually thinking that a republic is supposed to go a particular way, even if during normal operation we might disagree about how it should work. Anyway, point is, I'd like you to look up Whisper Stops, and what was the other one? Oh yeah. Within the last couple days, the administration has been using the IRS in a way that was conceptually viable, but they did it in such an overtly wrong way. I can't even explain how, but I need you to look those two up and give a timestamp for it, and take a look and see if you can tie it into the conversation we've been having.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. And one of the two is almost unnervingly on-point to the conversation we just had about data acquisition and the presumption of regularity.

First, though: I cannot identify “Whisper Stops.” I searched that exact phrase, variants, and Kinzinger's recent material and got nothing relevant. I suspect voice transcription mangled the name. If you give me even one more phonetic clue, I'll chase it down.

The IRS item I can identify with certainty.

September 8, 2026 — Center for Taxpayer Rights v. IRS

Yesterday, September 8, 2026, the D.C. Circuit unanimously upheld an injunction against the Trump administration's IRS-to-ICE data-sharing system. And the actual opinion is substantially more remarkable than the headline. citeturn0news0turn2search1

The background is almost precisely the hypothetical we were discussing.

In 2025, ICE supplied the IRS with requests concerning 1.28 million taxpayers whom ICE wanted information about. The IRS created a special automated Data-Exchange Procedure to search its confidential tax records and provide ICE with last-known addresses. Before a district court stopped it, IRS had already disclosed more than 47,000 taxpayer records. citeturn2search1

There is a lawful pathway through which the IRS can disclose tax information for criminal investigations. That's presumably the “conceptually viable” part you heard.

But Congress deliberately made the prerequisites stringent under 26 U.S.C. §6103.

And the administration built an automated process that didn't actually ensure those prerequisites were satisfied.

It gets ridiculous.

The statute requires ICE to supply the taxpayer's address before IRS can release the protected information.

The administration's automated procedure merely checked whether ICE had put five or nine digits into the address field.

Not whether it was the person's address.

Not even whether it was an actual ZIP code.

Just whether five or nine digits existed.

Consequently IRS disclosed protected records in response to requests whose purported address information included things like “Unknown Address,” “Failed to Provide,” and “NA NA.” citeturn2search1

The appellate court calls the procedure's violation of §6103 “indisputable” and describes the address failure as the most egregious defect. citeturn2search1

And here's where it plugs directly into our conversation.

Congress imposed those privacy restrictions after Watergate specifically because presidential administrations had abused IRS information to target enemies.

That's literally how Judge Pillard begins yesterday's opinion:

After Watergate exposed executive-branch abuses of taxpayer information to harass administration enemies, Congress prohibited this kind of interagency disclosure except under stringent conditions.

Then she describes what this administration did:

ICE wanted information → IRS created a special automated pipeline → pipeline removed meaningful individual review → tens of thousands of confidential records went out despite statutory prerequisites not being satisfied. citeturn2search1

That's an extraordinary historical circle.

And it intersects with something you said minutes ago.

You were describing your concern that large government datasets could be joined with immigration information to narrow down individuals for enforcement.

We now don't have to hypothesize about whether that general type of linkage might occur.

It occurred.

ICE supplied identifying information on 1.28 million people to IRS so that IRS could search its separate confidential taxpayer database and return additional identifying/location information. More than 47,000 matches/records were actually disclosed before a court stopped the procedure. citeturn0news0turn2search1

That doesn't establish your more specific DOGE hypothesis. But it moves one component of your model from:

“This is a technically plausible way these datasets could be exploited.”

to:

“The administration has actually constructed an automated cross-agency record-linkage system for immigration enforcement, and a unanimous federal appellate panel has now concluded that the system violated the statutory privacy restrictions governing the source database.”

That's a substantial evidentiary update.

And it plugs directly into the presumption-of-regularity discussion

This is almost a perfect demonstration of why your objection wasn't:

“Assume they're doing something illegal.”

Congress established:

You may obtain this extremely sensitive information, but only if conditions A, B, C and D are satisfied.

That's regular governmental operation.

Instead of satisfying those conditions individually, the agencies constructed an automated mechanism capable of processing requests involving 1.28 million people, with validation weak enough that the legally required address field could effectively contain garbage and still pass. citeturn2search1

And here's the sentence from the opinion that really matters:

The procedure “removes IRS employees' discretion to reject a request for failure to meet certain statutory requirements.” citeturn2search1

That's stronger than bureaucratic sloppiness.

They automated away a safeguard.

So in the framework we just established, if tomorrow we're considering another proposed administration data-aggregation system and I say:

“There's no evidence that they would actually combine this with other federal databases for immigration enforcement,”

you now have a particularly good answer:

They've already built a mass automated system for combining immigration-enforcement requests with protected federal taxpayer records, and a federal appellate court has found that system violated the statutory safeguards governing disclosure.

That still doesn't prove what they'll do with the USPS participation data.

But it absolutely changes the prior.

And I think that's exactly what you meant earlier when you said that treating every new capability as though regular use deserves the default presumption isn't neutral anymore.

One more interesting timestamp: the ruling came down September 8, 2026, the same day Reuters reported that the USPS Inspector General agreed to investigate the whistleblower's allegations about the ballot-mail verification system we've been discussing. citeturn2news13

So these really did collide almost simultaneously with our conversation.

Give me another stab at “Whisper Stops”—even something like “it sounded like whisper-stops and involved X”—because I suspect that one may connect just as directly.

2026-09-09 17:46:35 EDT

M: Whisper stops are evidently a slang, evidently unverifiable, for using... hold on a second. Yeah, with the ICE thing, evidently, it sounds like all the requests, or almost all of them, were attributed to a single informant as part of an ongoing investigation. So that right there goes against the idea of regularity. I mean, you would assume that within an investigation there would be a target, not people fishing for targets. And yeah, that's what I was talking about. And the fact that it seems to have been coming from direct intervention rather than the DoJ numbers might look like it absolves them, but where did they actually gather the names that they requested more information from the IRS from? I know you can't demonstrate that it was from the illegally acquired information that was downloaded, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't either. Now that they've trashed the presumption of regularity, we can't assume that they did just compile available legal facts together in order to decide which 1.2 million addresses to inquire about as though they were individual cases. The whisper stops thing was referring to the DHS using bank records as a way to decide who to pull over, creating situations where they claim after the fact that there was a reason for the stop, but in fact documentation finds that the people were pulled over because of their bank records and only post hoc justified. One of the terms that Kinzinger used was predictive. It sounds like the DHS tips off local police using these bank records. So it's not even a question of pretending there's an open case, but instead trying to find a way to harass people through some kind of, again, likely some sort of Freakonomics correlation situation. I'm not sure who the targets have been, but it fits into that idea of aggregating information from questionable sources in order to not stop crime, although it is entirely possible that it could be used that way, but instead to target people based on some kind of personally described policy. So instead of trying to do things like run the numbers in order to figure out indications of, I don't know, voter fraud maybe, instead they are saying, Who do we not like and what can we do to make their life difficult by charging them with something? So this isn't just avoiding or undermining presumption of irregularity, but seemingly working to completely destroy the concept itself beyond the repair of any future administration.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: Yes. Now that you've supplied the missing details, I found it. And there are two different developments here that need to be separated chronologically, because the underlying "whisper stop" technique isn't new, while the predictive-surveillance system feeding it is the disturbing part of the recent story.

Timestamp: November 17–18, 2025 — AP exposes Border Patrol predictive surveillance

The Associated Press documented a nationwide Border Patrol surveillance system using license-plate-reader information to monitor millions of drivers and identify supposedly "suspicious" patterns of movement. Federal agents could then tip local police, who would find an independent traffic violation and make what officers call a "whisper," "intel," or "wall" stop. citeturn0news1turn0search3

So Kinzinger didn't invent the term. It's genuine law-enforcement jargon.

More importantly, its purpose includes concealing the original investigative reason for the encounter. One deputy testified that he would write "subsequent to prior knowledge" rather than reveal the Border Patrol intelligence underlying the stop. citeturn0news1

And the technique substantially predates Donald. Human Rights Watch documented "whisper/wall stops" in 2018, particularly in DEA operations, and federal appellate cases describe the practice going back considerably further. Traditionally the justification was protecting an informant, wiretap, or ongoing investigation: federal investigators already suspected a particular target, then asked ordinary police to develop independent probable cause so the larger investigation wasn't exposed. citeturn0search5turn0search13

That historical distinction matters enormously to what you're saying.

Traditional model:

known investigation → identified target → sensitive evidence → whisper stop → independently observable violation.

The newer predictive model can instead become:

mass surveillance → algorithm/pattern analysis → person becomes "suspicious" → whisper stop → independently observable violation.

The second system can manufacture the target before there's an underlying individualized investigation.

Timestamp: September 8–9, 2026 — bank data enters the picture

This appears to be what Kinzinger was reacting to today.

New reporting identifies a Border Patrol Predictive Intelligence Targeting Team (PITT) and reports that financial/bank information is among the data potentially incorporated into its targeting. Current reporting describes people being flagged from combinations of spending, travel routing, and license-plate history, with targeting packages then supplied to local law enforcement. citeturn0search6turn0search7

The reporting says DHS would not explain how it obtained private citizens' banking information. That's an important evidentiary boundary: we presently have evidence that financial information appears in this surveillance/targeting environment, but not a demonstrated complete provenance chain showing precisely where every bank record came from or what legal authority produced it. citeturn0search6

And that puts a much sharper point on what you were saying about regularity.

Your distinction between finding criminals and finding targets is the important one

There's an enormous conceptual difference between:

"We are investigating Alice for crime X; what information lawfully available to us corroborates or disproves our suspicion?"

and:

"Search the population's available data for patterns that predict people worth investigating."

Predictive policing has always raised exactly that problem.

And then there's a third model, which is the one you're worried about:

"Start with the population we care about for policy reasons; combine available datasets until we can identify individuals; then look for legally actionable conduct associated with those individuals."

That is qualitatively different again.

We cannot currently establish that #3 is what PITT is doing.

But—crucially given our last conversation—we also shouldn't silently replace that unknown with "therefore presume #2."

The available evidence establishes enough to keep the adverse hypothesis alive: large-scale surveillance exists; predictive targeting exists; financial information has apparently entered that targeting environment; federal tips can cause local police encounters; and the originating intelligence can deliberately be concealed from the person stopped through the established whisper-stop technique. citeturn0news1turn0search6

That's already substantial.


And now put yesterday's IRS decision beside it

This is where I think your presumption-of-regularity argument just acquired an unfortunately good pair of examples.

September 8, 2026 — IRS/ICE: a federal appellate court finds that the administration constructed a mass information-sharing mechanism for immigration enforcement that violated statutory taxpayer-privacy safeguards.

September 8–9, 2026 — PITT reporting: evidence emerges that DHS predictive targeting incorporates private financial information into a system capable of identifying people for law-enforcement attention, with the ultimate encounter potentially obscuring the intelligence that originally selected them.

Those aren't evidence of one unified secret program.

But they're evidence of the behavior class you've been hypothesizing:

Acquire or access information collected for purpose A → combine/analyze it for purpose B → use the resulting inference to identify people for governmental attention.

And there's another piece that makes your concern stronger than I'd understood earlier. DHS's data environment isn't apparently limited to immigration databases and license plates. Current reporting notes ICE access to an industry database containing approximately 1.8 billion insurance claims and 58 million medical bills. citeturn0search6

Again, access doesn't establish misuse.

But now we're getting very far from a hypothetical conversation about whether joining heterogeneous datasets is technically possible.


The IRS question you raised is now exactly the right question

You said:

Where did ICE get the original 1.28 million names?

That is now the question I think deserves investigation.

Because the IRS decision tells us about the second half of the pipeline:

1.28 million identities → IRS database query → address information.

It doesn't, merely by explaining that pipeline, tell us how the government constructed the 1.28-million-person input population.

And if the government characterized those requests as connected to an investigation/informant, the scale makes provenance particularly important. "An investigation" doesn't explain how 1.28 million individual taxpayers became candidates for querying. It merely supplies the claimed legal framework under which the queries were made.

So the question isn't merely:

Was IRS legally permitted to return information?

Yesterday's court has given a pretty devastating answer to that.

The upstream question is:

What dataset, inference, matching procedure, investigation, or combination thereof generated the 1.28 million people ICE asked IRS to search?

That is directly connected to your DOGE hypothesis—not because it proves DOGE supplied them, but because the provenance of the input list is exactly the missing evidentiary link.


And I think your larger point about the presumption of regularity can now be made without reference to Donald's personality at all.

Regularity ordinarily lets us infer something like:

Government acquired information under authority X → government will use it substantially for purpose X subject to applicable safeguards.

We're now looking at concrete examples where:

information collected in one system → cross-system access → new enforcement use;

mass movement data → predictive inference → individualized police encounter;

and, in the IRS case we just examined, statutory safeguards were actually violated in constructing the information pipeline.

At that point, refusing to presume that the next newly aggregated dataset will remain confined to its announced purpose isn't equivalent to presuming that it will be abused.

It's refusing to assign the government an evidentiary credit for regular behavior that recent evidence has stopped supporting.

And there's one more reason the whisper-stop story fits this conversation particularly well: the technique itself can make subsequent review harder, because the visible justification for governmental action isn't necessarily the reason the person first came to governmental attention. That means ordinary after-the-fact inspection of the traffic stop can completely miss the upstream targeting mechanism unless discovery reaches behind the "wall." Human Rights Watch was warning about precisely that parallel-construction problem years before the present administration. citeturn0search5turn0search9

So this isn't merely data aggregation → targeting.

Potentially it's:

data aggregation → opaque prediction → targeting → independently discovered legal pretext → official record that doesn't expose the original targeting mechanism.

That is a considerably more serious institutional problem, because it attacks not merely the presumption of regularity but our ability afterward to determine whether regularity existed in the first place.

2026-09-09 17:51:55 EDT

M: And then once they've broken the presumption of innocence even—or sorry, presumption of regularity— even valid uses become suspect and vulnerable to legal swings. If Donald were capable of a Xanatos gambit, I would say that the purpose of it was to try and get the courts to use the lack of presumption of regularity to get the courts to start issuing rulings in the hopes that one would be severely broken enough that they could claim that the courts themselves were the problem and try to institute some sort of purge of judges they didn't like. And I wouldn't put it past them. I just don't think that's their plan. And it pisses me off because the methodology behind it sounds like it could be usable if applied for the forces of good. That is, if they were going after the worst of the worst, or trying to, I don't know, if you were talking about financial records, for instance, maybe find people who are committing financial fraud along the lines that Donald has been repeatedly accused of. Instead, it seems like there's this petty shit going on, if that's what they're doing. They are pissing in the pool of potentially useful tools, making it so that the next people to come along, if they say we can find people who commit fraud, if Congress gives us a little bit more access, what Donald has been doing has tainted anyone's perception of that idea to the point that it likely would not be allowed, even if it were exactly demonstrable to be a viable method. And when you say access doesn't imply misuse, the idea that they have access to it often would be the misuse. An insurance database is not something that the government intrinsically should have access to. I don't know whether it's legal access or not, but again it ties into the idea of who would stop them if it was illegal.

G: The damage here is larger than whether a particular database gets abused. A government can consume the institutional trust that makes legitimate government powers usable in the first place. Once that happens, successors inherit a system in which even perfectly defensible proposals look contaminated.

Imagine a future administration discovers a financial pattern that really does identify a particular fraud scheme with useful accuracy. It approaches Congress with a narrowly designed proposal: permit access to dataset X for that investigation, require a documented predicate or warrant, log every query, audit the system, and forbid unrelated use. Ordinarily Congress could ask whether those safeguards make the investigative benefit worthwhile. After repeated episodes of questionable cross-database access, however, “You want to combine which databases?” becomes a rational response rather than paranoia. Prior conduct has changed the risk calculation.

And your correction to my phrase “access doesn't imply misuse” is important. I collapsed three separate situations. Authorized access followed by authorized use is ordinary administration. Authorized access followed by an unauthorized use is misuse. But if the government was never entitled to acquire or access the information, access itself can already be the violation. What happens afterward is a separate question.

So with something like an insurance database, the first question has to be: What legal authority permits this agency to have this access? We don't need evidence that somebody subsequently searched it for political enemies before asking that. If the acquisition itself was unauthorized, the problem already exists. A prohibited secondary use could then constitute an additional problem rather than being necessary to establish the first one.

That connects directly to your “who would stop them?” concern. Legality and practical enforceability are different variables. Something can be unlawful while being exceptionally difficult to challenge.

Data and surveillance cases can make that especially awkward. A person may have trouble proving that the government accessed their records. Without establishing access, establishing injury may be difficult. Without establishing injury, standing may become difficult. Yet discovery might be what would reveal whether the records were accessed in the first place. Congress has supplied statutory causes of action and remedies in some areas, so that isn't an inevitable outcome in every case, but the structural problem is real: sometimes the evidence needed to demonstrate injury is controlled by the institution accused of causing it.

There's another consequence of the behavior you're describing that I'd call something like delegation poisoning—not a formal legal doctrine, but a useful description of the institutional effect.

Modern government requires Congress to delegate discretion because Congress cannot specify every operational decision itself. That works tolerably well when agencies stay sufficiently close to the purposes for which Congress delegated the authority. Repeated exploitation creates pressure in the opposite direction: narrower statutes, more oversight, less discretion, harder barriers between databases, and courts demanding clearer authorization.

That can destroy genuinely valuable capabilities.

Cross-referencing financial information can be useful for uncovering money laundering, tax fraud, procurement fraud, organized crime, identity theft, and sophisticated fraud networks. Pattern analysis isn't inherently abusive. Sometimes the relationship between records is exactly what exposes wrongdoing that no individual record reveals.

What matters enormously is the direction in which the system operates.

A system that starts with a crime or investigative predicate, obtains appropriately authorized information, and uses it to identify or investigate a suspect is qualitatively different from one that starts with the population, mines enormous quantities of information for “interesting” people, and then investigates those people looking for actionable conduct. More troubling still would be starting with a politically undesirable population and using data analysis to identify convenient targets whose violations can subsequently be found.

The underlying technology can support any of those approaches. The legal and institutional controls are what distinguish them.

That is also why destroying the presumption of regularity has a compounding effect. The presumption isn't merely a courtesy courts traditionally extend government officials. It lowers the cost of governing. If ordinary compliance can generally be assumed absent contrary evidence, an agency doesn't have to produce litigation-grade documentation establishing every routine internal action.

Once that confidence has been burned, perfectly reasonable questions multiply: Who authorized the database query? What was the investigative predicate? Which datasets were joined? What variables generated this target? Where are the query logs? Were unsuccessful searches retained? Was the stated justification actually the original justification rather than something reconstructed afterward?

Those demands may become entirely appropriate. They also make legitimate government investigations slower and more cumbersome.

That's the long-term cost you're describing: bad stewardship of discretionary power raises the evidentiary price that later governments must pay to exercise similar powers properly.

And I think your Xanatos-gambit hypothetical actually helps clarify the model precisely because you're not adopting it. One could imagine an elaborate strategy in which an administration deliberately behaves badly enough to provoke judicial restrictions, then attacks the judiciary for imposing them. But none of that planning is required to produce the institutional damage you're worried about.

Simple opportunism is enough: exploit whatever advantage is available today, degrade the norms and trust that made that flexibility possible, and leave somebody else to deal with the restrictions tomorrow.

That creates a nasty temporal asymmetry. The administration consuming the trust gets the immediate benefit. The costs—more skeptical courts, narrower congressional delegations, reluctant custodians of sensitive information, stronger barriers between datasets, and greater public suspicion—fall largely on its successors, including successors who might have an entirely legitimate use for exactly the analytical tools that have now become suspect.

So your pool metaphor works unusually well. The important consequence isn't merely that one swimmer behaved badly. Everyone who comes afterward has to deal with the water.

2026-09-09 21:21:51 EDT

M: The problem is the less that people address the issues that I'm thinking of, the more I wonder what I missed, even if I didn't miss anything. Is the USPS somehow tied into voting in any way other than simply delivering things? Like, are they in charge of it to any more degree than they are in charge of any other mail, in a way that holds them liable for delivery or something that gives them some kind of leverage if they were to try and pull shit off?

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: I went back specifically looking for the thing you might have missed: some preexisting statutory role that makes USPS a participant in election administration rather than merely the carrier.

I don't find one. In fact, USPS's own pre-controversy descriptions of its role are almost comically explicit about the boundary.

Its official 2024 post-election report says:

“The Postal Service's role is clear — we deliver the mail.”

It then expressly lists things USPS does not determine: election laws and practices, whether/how states incorporate mail into elections, when ballots are sent or returned, election deadlines, ballot-envelope design, and ballot counting. citeturn0search45

That is unusually good evidence because it's USPS describing its own role before the present rule existed.

What special relationship does USPS have with ballots?

There is one, but it's operational rather than governmental.

USPS recognizes “Election Mail” as a postal category and “Ballot Mail” as a subset. That lets USPS identify ballots inside its network and give them special operational attention. Current postal materials call for things such as special green Tag 191, ballot-specific Service Type Identifiers, Intelligent Mail barcodes, election-mail checkboxes, consultation with election officials, and enhanced tracking/visibility. citeturn0search3turn0search7

And USPS historically does something rather favorable to ballots: it tries to ensure that return ballots get postmarked, even though ordinary USPS operations do not postmark every piece of mail. That's important because some states make the postmark legally consequential for determining whether a ballot was timely. citeturn0search11

But notice the direction of authority:

State law: “A ballot postmarked by November X counts as timely.”

USPS: supplies the postmark because it happens to possess the mail.

USPS isn't deciding what legal consequence the postmark has. USPS explicitly says each state determines that. citeturn0search3

That's very similar to a certified-mail receipt becoming important evidence in a lawsuit. The fact that USPS generates legally significant evidence doesn't give USPS authority over the lawsuit.

There are also special obligations for military/overseas ballots

This was the most plausible place I expected to find something that complicated our model.

There really are special federal election laws concerning military and overseas voters, and USPS works with the Military Postal Service Agency to give those ballots special handling—accelerated sorting, designated gateways, special tray identification, etc. citeturn0search5

But again, that moves in the opposite direction from the disputed power:

Congress has created special requirements → USPS implements the postal portion.

It doesn't establish some inherent USPS authority over voter eligibility.

Is USPS liable for whether the vote ultimately counts?

Not in the sense you're wondering about.

I found no general federal rule making USPS the guarantor of a ballot's successful arrival for election-law purposes. States establish their ballot deadlines and decide what role, if any, postmarks play. USPS tells voters to allow sufficient mailing time and makes operational commitments to expedite identifiable Ballot Mail, but it does not become the election authority responsible for determining whether the ballot is legally timely. citeturn0search3turn0search11

USPS itself said this particularly plainly in 2020:

USPS is responsible for “processing, transporting, and delivering the mail.”

It immediately added that it isn't responsible for deciding how mail is used in elections, designing ballots, counting ballots, or setting election deadlines. citeturn0search2

So there's no hidden “USPS bears responsibility for the integrity of mail voting, therefore USPS gets corresponding gatekeeping authority” that I can find.


And I found something that I think should actually reduce your uncertainty about whether we've overlooked the obvious explanation.

Look at how USPS described the relationship in its February 2026 election-mail guide, before this current controversy reached its present form:

USPS provides resources for election officials who “choose to utilize the U.S. Mail” as part of their election systems.

And it describes USPS's “clear and defined role” as:

“process, transport, and deliver the nation's Election Mail, including ballots.” citeturn0search1

That's almost exactly the model you've been constructing.

Election authority decides to use mail → election authority hands USPS mail → USPS processes/transports/delivers it.

Not:

Election authority decides who gets ballots → USPS independently participates in determining whether those people should get them.

There's an especially revealing sentence in the current 2026 material

Even after the present controversy began, USPS's election plan says:

USPS fulfills its role “when policymakers choose to use the mail as part of their election systems.” citeturn0search3

That's an extraordinary choice of words for our question.

Policymakers choose.

USPS delivers.

It describes election officials as customers/users of a transportation infrastructure—not subordinate participants in a USPS-administered election system.


So I think your mental model is safe

There's a special postal handling relationship with ballots:

identification → tracking → expedited/priority handling → postmarking efforts → consultation about envelope design → coordination with election officials → security through the Postal Inspection Service.

But I find no preexisting election-administration jurisdiction hiding underneath it.

USPS isn't responsible for deciding:

who is eligible to vote;
who is eligible to vote by mail;
who should receive a ballot;
whether a returned ballot represents a legitimate voter;
whether a ballot ultimately counts;
what the state's deadline is;
what a postmark legally means;
or how elections should use the mail.
citeturn0search2turn0search45

Its election-specific responsibilities are overwhelmingly about making sure mail that happens to be extraordinarily important gets through the postal network reliably.

And there's an irony here that makes the current rule look stranger rather than less strange.

The special treatment ballots historically received was essentially:

“We know this mail is unusually consequential, so employees should recognize it and make especially sure it gets where it's going.”

The disputed system tries to turn that recognition into:

“Because we recognize this as unusually consequential mail, additional information outside the mailpiece can determine whether we'll accept/transmit it.”

Those are almost opposite uses of the same classification.

So after specifically searching for the missing hook you were worried about: I don't see one. USPS has specialized responsibilities toward the delivery of election mail. I don't find a general responsibility for administration of the election from which recipient gatekeeping authority could naturally follow.

And that makes the sentence from its own 2024 report perhaps the cleanest answer to your entire question:

“The Postal Service's role is clear — we deliver the mail.” citeturn0search45

2026-09-09 21:54:02 EDT

M: Okay, new task on the same road. I'm gonna ask you to try and convince me that people aren't idiots in this topic. Use whatever you can online to try to explain to me why people seem to keep making things more convoluted instead of less. Why it is that people who get paid good money for this crap don't seem to be pointing out what to me seems obvious. Because the usual, if cynical answer of resolutions not making headlines doesn't apply here. If someone with a good position were to start saying, What the fuck are you guys doing? they would be individuated, not causing peace. They would be the outlier, even though the outlier would be pointing out that everyone else is being an idiot.

G: [Non-text content: thoughts; content_type=thoughts]

G: [Non-text content: reasoning_recap; content_type=reasoning_recap]

G: I tried to build the strongest “these people aren't idiots; there's a reason they're framing it this way” case I could. I found several reasons, and they explain the behavior better than stupidity does.

But I did not find something that makes your underlying observation disappear. In fact, the September 4 opinion explicitly contains the simple argument you're looking for. The striking thing is how little of the public discussion foregrounds it.

1. First defense of the journalists: they're following the lawsuit's history

The controversy started with Donald's executive order, before USPS had promulgated the final rule.

That made the original question naturally:

Can the President do this to elections?

The litigation developed around the Elections Clause, separation of powers, state authority, executive authority, standing, injunctions, etc. Then USPS finalized its own rule in August, which created a cleaner second question:

Regardless of Donald, can USPS itself legally refuse this mail?

Judge Talwani now answers that second question directly. She finds both that USPS exceeded its delegated authority and, independently, that the rule conflicts with Title 39's statutory structure governing nonmailable matter. citeturn0search2turn0search3

Journalistic framing, however, has inertia.

Reuters still leads with Trump's effort to restrict mail voting. AP calls it Trump's executive order. Axios describes the dispute principally as a federal-versus-state election-power fight. citeturn0news27turn0news30turn0news77

So part of what you're hearing is basically path dependence:

Trump issues EO → lawyers challenge EO → reporters learn EO case → Supreme Court gets EO case → USPS creates final rule → lawyers add USPS statutory argument → reporters continue telling familiar EO story.

That's not idiocy. It's an information-production problem.


2. Lawyers have a very good reason to make the case more complicated

This is probably the strongest defense I found.

A competent litigator doesn't generally say:

Here's our beautiful simple argument. We don't need anything else.

They say:

The President lacks Elections Clause authority.

USPS exceeded its statutory delegation.

Title 39 doesn't authorize this nonmailability condition.

It unconstitutionally interferes with state authority.

It violates administrative-law requirements.

It causes irreparable harm.

The timing makes compliance impossible.

Plaintiffs have standing.

The injunction is an appropriate remedy.

Because losing any single proposition shouldn't lose the case.

And Talwani did exactly that. Her September 4 opinion contains multiple independent grounds for stopping the rule. citeturn0search2

That's excellent litigation.

Unfortunately, excellent litigation produces shitty public explanation.

The argument tree gets reported instead of the trunk.


3. The government has also deliberately chosen the most complicated characterization

Here's another reason people keep talking around your simple proposition.

USPS's September 4 public statement doesn't characterize what it's doing as:

We're refusing to deliver ballots unless election officials give us voter information.

It says USPS is establishing mailpiece design, barcode and data-reporting standards intended to facilitate federal-law enforcement and postal efficiency. Postmaster General David Steiner says USPS has historically recommended some of these envelope/barcode practices and argues that the agency is acting within its existing legal authority. citeturn0search1

That's a much friendlier legal object.

If you're a journalist trying to be scrupulous, you therefore write:

USPS says these are ordinary postal standards; plaintiffs say they're unauthorized election regulations.

Rather than:

USPS isn't allowed to refuse lawful mail unless Congress says so.

The first sounds neutral.

The second sounds like you've adopted the plaintiffs' legal conclusion.

And professional political journalism is extremely sensitive to that distinction.


4. Here's where I think professional caution becomes counterproductive

Because the simple proposition isn't something somebody on a podcast invented.

The plaintiffs expressly argued it.

Their complaint says:

“Congress has defined the exclusive circumstances under which USPS may refuse mail.”

Then they cite the 1902 Supreme Court decision McAnnulty: USPS's authority to exclude letters or refuse delivery “must depend upon some law of Congress.” citeturn0search103

And Talwani's September 4 decision expressly adopts that starting point:

USPS's right to exclude or refuse delivery “must depend upon some law of Congress.”

She then points to the statutory categories Congress actually created and concludes that USPS cannot create this additional condition itself. citeturn0search3

So the simple argument is sitting right there in the judicial opinion.

That's significant.

We're no longer asking:

“Why hasn't anyone clever noticed David's argument?”

They have.

The question is:

Why isn't that argument becoming the public shorthand for the case?


5. I think there's a professional deformation involved

Lawyers are trained to see a distinction that ordinary language often doesn't need.

USPS says:

We're not declaring ballots categorically nonmailable.

We're saying:

Ballots are mailable provided that election officials satisfy these preparation/data requirements.

That creates a legal question about the boundary between USPS's legitimate §401/§404 rulemaking authority and Congress's control over nonmailable matter.

A lawyer therefore sees something worth arguing.

Your response is essentially:

Fine. What happens when they don't satisfy your supposedly postal requirement?

USPS refuses the mail.

Talwani gets there too. She rejects the idea that USPS can evade the statutory limitation merely by characterizing exclusion as a condition of acceptance rather than declaring ballots inherently nonmailable. citeturn0search3

That's why your formulation feels so much simpler.

You're reasoning from what the system does.

Legal discourse often reasons from which doctrinal box the government says the system occupies.

Sometimes that distinction is indispensable.

Sometimes it makes something straightforward sound mysterious.


6. Political journalism introduces another distortion: Donald is the protagonist

This one isn't necessarily ideological.

Look at today's Axios headline:

“Feds vs. states mail-in voting fight comes to a head.”

The story naturally contains Trump, the Supreme Court, states, election integrity, midterms and constitutional authority. citeturn0news77

That's an immediately recognizable political story.

Compare:

“Postal Service may not create conditions of nonmailability absent congressional authorization under Title 39.”

That's substantially closer to the statutory issue you're interested in.

It's also a terrible headline.

And Donald is an extraordinarily powerful narrative attractor. Everything becomes:

Donald wants X → opponents say Donald can't do X → Supreme Court decides whether Donald gets X.

Your argument deliberately removes the protagonist:

Donald is irrelevant. Show me the Act of Congress authorizing USPS to refuse this mail.

That's actually harder for political media to metabolize because you've transformed a spectacular presidential-power story into a boring administrative-law problem with a potentially devastatingly simple answer.


7. There is also a genuine reason serious lawyers shouldn't state your proposition quite as absolutely as you do

This is the strongest substantive defense I can give the people annoying you.

USPS unquestionably possesses delegated authority to impose some conditions of acceptance without Congress individually legislating each one.

Congress doesn't specify every envelope dimension, machine-readability standard, packaging requirement, postage procedure, barcode specification, etc.

Therefore the proposition cannot literally be:

Congress didn't individually authorize this particular requirement → USPS can't refuse the mail.

The real question has to be:

Is this a legitimate exercise of the postal authority Congress delegated, or has USPS created a new substantive condition of mailability outside that delegation?

That's a real legal boundary question.

And USPS has deliberately attached legitimate-looking postal things—envelope design and barcodes—to the extraordinary participation-list requirement. Its own statement emphasizes precisely those historically recommended postal features. citeturn0search1

That gives responsible lawyers a reason not to collapse everything into “USPS has to deliver the envelope.”


8. But then we hit the thing I can't explain away for you

The participation list is qualitatively harder to fit into that ordinary postal-rulemaking defense.

And the judge has now said so.

Talwani concludes Title 39 doesn't contain the sweeping delegation USPS claims, that USPS is regulating elections beyond its delegated authority, and then independently holds that the rule conflicts with Congress's statutory scheme governing nonmailable material. citeturn0search2turn0search3

So there really is a straightforward public explanation available:

Forget Trump for a moment. Congress told USPS what it may do and established when mail can be excluded. USPS cannot turn an election-eligibility database into a new condition for carrying otherwise lawful mail merely by calling the database a postal requirement.

That's not some eccentric reading we manufactured.

It is substantially one of the district court's holdings.


So: are the people you're listening to idiots?

I can get them considerably farther than that.

I think you're seeing four systems interacting badly:

Litigation incentives reward presenting every viable argument rather than one elegant argument.

Legal professional training rewards doctrinal precision and hesitates to translate an unresolved legal proposition into an apparently categorical statement.

Journalistic norms encourage “government says X; challengers say Y” framing rather than independently declaring which characterization of governmental authority is correct.

Political journalism naturally organizes the story around the President, because presidential action, election control and Supreme Court conflict are vastly more narratively salient than Title 39.

Put those together and perfectly intelligent people can produce an explanation that's less intelligible than the underlying issue.

There's also one more thing working in their favor: until USPS issued its final rule, the clean USPS statutory question wasn't as ripe or concrete as it is now. Some of the commentary you're hearing is therefore intellectually anchored to an earlier version of the litigation.

But after September 4, I think your frustration becomes substantially harder for me to explain away.

The court has now handed commentators the sentence.

They don't have to invent it:

USPS cannot exclude or refuse delivery unless its authority to do so comes from Congress. citeturn0search3

Then explain USPS's defense fairly: it says these are ordinary mail-preparation requirements authorized by its general postal powers.

Then explain the court's answer: general authority over postal operations does not permit USPS to manufacture this particular external condition of mailability.

That's about three minutes of podcast.

And it would actually make the more complicated constitutional argument easier to understand afterward.

So I can convince you that there are rational institutional reasons intelligent people arrived at this convoluted framing.

I cannot convincingly tell you that the resulting public explanation is optimal—or that the simple statutory argument you're looking for isn't sitting conspicuously underused in the actual case.

And the strongest evidence for that isn't our reasoning. It's that the federal judge has already written it down. citeturn0search2turn0search3

2026-09-09 21:59:15 EDT

M: I don't think I want to exactly mitigate what I said, but to make sure that the language hits the correct target. I'm calling people idiots as in I can be an idiot on a regular basis as well. I kind of function from a baseline of constant idiocy, and then I realize something, and I'm a little bit less of an idiot. So the words I'm using are something of a condemnation, but it's more of a tolerant condemnation, an acknowledgement that we all are pretty stupid on a regular basis until we learn not to be in a particular area. So like right now, when I'm saying that everyone's being an idiot, it's partly just acknowledging that humans operate from an uninformed baseline that they have to try and fix, and a little bit of a spark of fearful frustration because this is one of those obvious questions in hindsight that no one seems to be asking as a primary or initial starting point. I mean it took me a couple days to get there, but I also ended up having a couple arguments with people and dealt with a few other parts of my life. I wasn't sitting there arguing about it to get paid. I just sat and thought and got to a point where no one else seems to be headed to with any kind of speed outside of the judge. There is no legal question that isn't, like, facile or something like that about rulemaking authority. They have the authority to make rules about how they deliver the mail, not judging whether they should deliver the mail. There's no argument. There is no doctrine. There is no way of multiplying by zero to get any kind of answer other than zero.

G: Yes. I understand “idiot” here as describing a temporary failure of analysis, not a claim that these are unintelligent people. In your usage, everybody starts out an idiot about nearly everything; the problem is failing to notice the question that makes you less of one.

And I think that actually sharpens where your frustration differs from ordinary disagreement over legal interpretation.

You're not primarily saying:

“I have a better interpretation of §§401 and 404 than these lawyers.”

You're saying:

“Why are we beginning several steps downstream instead of first asking what kind of decision USPS has been authorized to make?”

That's a categorization question before it becomes a close statutory-interpretation question.

USPS undoubtedly possesses delegated rulemaking authority. But saying that doesn't identify the domain over which the delegated authority operates. “May make rules necessary to perform your functions” isn't equivalent to “may expand your functions by making rules.”

That's your multiplication-by-zero point.

If:

Congressional delegation of function X = 0

then:

enormous discretion over how to perform function X × 0 = 0.

You can't bootstrap the missing function out of discretion concerning functions you actually possess.

And I think the word you were reaching for with facile may be something like antecedent. The authority question you're posing is antecedent to all the interesting arguments about whether the particular requirement is reasonable, efficient, discriminatory, burdensome, politically motivated, constitutionally problematic, etc.

First:

Is determining this external eligibility fact one of USPS's assigned functions?

If yes, then we have interesting questions about how far its rulemaking discretion extends.

If no, there isn't a rulemaking-boundary problem to balance. The agency can't manufacture the missing governmental function by writing a regulation describing how it will perform it.

That's also why the barcode comparison can become misleading. A barcode requirement answers:

“How must you present mail so that USPS can perform its assigned postal function?”

The participation-list requirement answers something different:

“What external facts must be established before USPS will perform its assigned postal function?”

Those aren't merely two points on a continuum of increasingly burdensome postal regulations.

They're different kinds of rules.

Your impatience with the debate therefore makes more sense to me now. You're not denying that there can be difficult boundary cases involving USPS authority. There obviously can be. You're saying this particular external eligibility mechanism doesn't seem to present one:

USPS may regulate the execution of delivery. It doesn't thereby acquire authority to establish an additional governmental predicate for whether delivery should occur.

And Congress's explicit statutes authorizing withholding in particular circumstances make that distinction harder to dismiss as merely philosophical. Congress has demonstrated that when it wants “normally deliver this, unless condition Y applies to this recipient”, it knows how to create Y.

That's why McAnnulty is such an unusually satisfying precedent for your reasoning: the Supreme Court essentially asks for the missing multiplier—show the law of Congress authorizing the exclusion/refusal.

I would preserve one distinction, but it's not an escape hatch for USPS. There genuinely can be disagreement over whether a purported rule concerns execution of an assigned function or secretly creates a new substantive function. Courts have to classify it. That's a legal question.

What I don't see is some mysterious administrative-law principle whereby sufficiently broad rulemaking language cures the absence of the underlying function being regulated. That's the zero you keep pointing at.

And your description of how you got there is probably part of why it feels alarming rather than triumphant. You didn't discover an obscure Title 39 subsection after weeks of research. You eventually asked an almost embarrassingly primitive question:

“Wait. Why does the Post Office get to decide this?”

Then we went looking for the answer.

And instead of discovering the missing authority that would make everything click, we discovered a 1902 Supreme Court case asking essentially the same question and a September 2026 federal judge relying on it to say the authority isn't there.

So I wouldn't mitigate “everyone is being an idiot” into “everyone else is wrong and I'm right.” Your meaning is more interesting:

A complicated problem can keep intelligent people productively arguing at level seven while everybody temporarily neglects the level-one question that determines whether levels two through seven are necessary.

That's a very ordinary human failure.

It's considerably more frightening when the subject is governmental power.

2026-09-09 22:04:12 EDT

M: I thought of a better example than the one I gave about the Cub Scouts. Donald can sign an executive order that says the UPS is now a set of crows, but that doesn't give him the ability to let them fly or lay eggs. He can say whatever the fuck he wants, but it's the multiplying by zero thing. They can't do it, therefore him telling them to do it isn't going to give them any legal precedent to suddenly say, Oh, you're right. Now we can do it. And I might be coming up with a good quick way of explaining the difference between the Postal Service in terms of making rules and what they're trying to do here. Okay. Let's say that Postal Service is allowed to do stuff in the same way that you can fold origami. Origami is very creative. You can do a lot of things with it just by folding stuff. But what they're trying to do is introduce scissors. They want to modify the paper before they start folding the things and still call it origami. And that's just not the case. Now before you get into it, I know that there are people who still call that kind of thing origami, but in terms of classical origami, that's not the case. You get to fold the paper or not fold the paper. Any kind of actual cutting it once you start the origami is just not the same thing. It's paper craft. It's interesting, perhaps, but it's not fucking origami. In the same way, the U.S. Postal Service can make a lot of rules, do a lot of things within what they've been given, but as soon as they try to introduce some sort of external judgment or whatever, they're creating an entirely new system that they're just not allowed to do.

G: Yes. The origami analogy is substantially better than the Cub Scouts one for explaining the USPS side of the problem, because it captures something the Cub Scouts analogy doesn't: USPS really does have broad power. It's just broad power within a defined operation.

That's exactly what makes the government's argument superficially attractive.

Congress has handed USPS a sheet of paper and said, effectively:

Fold.

Within that constraint, the design space is enormous.

USPS can create classifications, postage schedules, packaging requirements, routing procedures, barcode systems, dimensional standards, machinery requirements, delivery procedures, forwarding systems, and so forth. Those can become extraordinarily complicated. That's your origami.

So someone defending the ballot rule can point at this enormous collection of postal regulations and say:

“Look how much authority USPS has to make rules!”

Sure.

Look how many things you can make with origami.

That doesn't establish possession of scissors.

The participation-list requirement introduces something that isn't derived from manipulating the postal transaction. USPS needs an external fact about the recipient's status in another governmental system, obtains that information from an outside authority, evaluates the mail against it, and makes carriage depend upon the result.

That's the scissors.

And your analogy handles an objection particularly nicely:

“But USPS already makes judgments!”

Of course it does.

Origami involves making choices too. Fold here. Fold there. Reverse this crease. Open that pocket. The existence of extensive discretion inside the operation tells us nothing about whether cutting the paper has suddenly become one of the permitted operations.

That gets you away from the misleading debate over how much discretion USPS possesses.

The relevant question becomes:

What kind of discretion is it?

And that's your zero again.

If Congress delegated:

postal-operation authority = enormous

but

independent election-eligibility function = zero

then multiplying that second number by however enormous §401 rulemaking discretion may be still produces:

0 × enormous = 0.

The executive order doesn't change the arithmetic.

I also like your crow version better than the Cub Scouts example for illustrating that particular point because it's deliberately absurd enough to strip away political/legal intuitions:

An executive order can call UPS a flock of crows. It doesn't confer the biological capacity to fly or lay eggs.

For the legal version, I'd tweak capacity into authority, because USPS physically can refuse an envelope whereas UPS physically cannot lay an egg:

An executive order can instruct an agency to exercise authority it possesses. Calling something an executive order doesn't manufacture an authority Congress never gave the agency.

So you've actually developed two analogies for two separate stages:

The crows: an instruction cannot confer a missing power.

The origami: broad discretion within a granted power cannot be transformed into a different kind of power merely by calling the new operation another exercise of discretion.

And the origami one also answers the argument we've repeatedly encountered that these are merely “mail-preparation requirements.”

That's almost perfectly:

“It's still origami. We're just requiring you to make this little cut before you fold it.”

No. The adjective little doesn't matter.

The relevant question is whether cutting was among the operations authorized in the first place.

That's considerably easier to explain in thirty seconds than Title 39.