M: How would you suggest linguistically differentiating between the modern concept of racism and how things were in, like, the 1700s? I'm asking because I was conceptually bothered by the conflation in something someone just said about, um, and they were doing it comedically, so it's not like I'm against them, but it made me think in this direction. But it was a conflation of the two concepts by talking about our violent racist past. That made me think that simultaneously I don't disagree, but at the same time, there is a substantive difference between the society of 1750 or whatever, when racial inequality wasn't a social idea but simply thought of as being scientifically demonstrated, and being racist now. Like, if it was used seriously the way they had said it. Because there's only the one term unmodified, on a technical level, I couldn't disagree, but it would be implying a certain degree of maliciousness to the sentiment that I don't believe was the universal attitude in the 1700s. Certainly there were likely people who were malicious about it, but that's because humanity has a lot of different flavors, including rotten. But I feel like, well, first I feel like it's unfair, but if I strip that away, it still is inaccurate to be able to not distinguish between the malicious racism that can be seen today because it's standing against a backdrop of people who more or less have stopped caring about racial superiority. And back in the day, when it was almost considered a bedrock physics assumption, to the point that stuff that would be condescending now would actually have been thought of as a sign of a good heart back in the day, because the idea of not being racist... it hadn't really been brought to the forefront. You got any ideas there? You can go online to see if anyone else has addressed this too.

G: I actually think you're putting your finger on a distinction that historians, philosophers, and historians of science have wrestled with for quite a while. It's not that the people of 1750 weren't racist by modern definitions. Rather, it's that the mode of racism was different, and English doesn't have especially good everyday vocabulary for distinguishing those modes.

One distinction I find useful is between beliefs held as epistemic "fact" and beliefs held in defiance of available evidence.

In other words:

Those are psychologically different states, even if both produce racial hierarchy.

I don't think the best distinction is "malicious vs. non-malicious," because even in the 1700s there were people who recognized slavery and racial hierarchy as wrong, and there were plenty of people who exploited racial theories for material benefit. Conversely, today there are people whose racist beliefs aren't driven primarily by hatred but by sincerely (though wrongly) accepted claims. History contains mixtures of motives. citeturn0search1turn0search11

Instead, I'd probably distinguish them with language like this:


I also think there's a linguistic distinction that isn't discussed enough:

Inherited worldview versus chosen worldview.

Suppose a child is raised in 1750 and literally every authority they encounter—teachers, clergy, physicians, natural philosophers, politicians—tells them races differ intrinsically.

That person hasn't simply adopted prejudice in the same psychological way someone might today after deliberately seeking out fringe racial theories. The proposition occupied something closer to the role that "gravity exists" occupies for us today. That doesn't make the belief true, nor does it remove moral responsibility for harmful actions, but it changes what kind of error it is.

I'd call that:

epistemic racism

or

paradigmatic racism

meaning the racism arose from the dominant knowledge framework rather than conscious rejection of it.

Those aren't standard terms, but they capture the distinction you're after.


Another way to phrase it is by borrowing a concept historians already use:

Presentism.

Historians often caution against assuming people in the past possessed today's knowledge or conceptual framework. That doesn't mean refusing to judge slavery or racism morally; it means recognizing that historical actors operated within a different intellectual environment. citeturn0search9turn0search6


I think your example

"our violent racist past"

is rhetorically effective but semantically compressed.

It compresses at least three claims:

  1. The society maintained racial hierarchy.
  2. The society committed racial violence.
  3. Many participants understood race in fundamentally different epistemic terms than people do today.

All three can be true simultaneously.


If I were inventing terminology specifically for precision, I might say:

The key distinction is that foundational versus adversarial doesn't say anything about morality. It distinguishes whether someone is reasoning within the accepted framework of their time or against the accepted framework of their time.

I suspect that's very close to what you're trying to isolate. You aren't trying to excuse the past. You're trying to avoid flattening two different cognitive states into one word. We routinely distinguish, for example, between a physician who prescribed mercury in 1750 because it was accepted medicine and a physician who prescribes it today after modern toxicology. The treatment may be equally harmful, but the epistemic situation is fundamentally different. Your question is whether our language about racism should be equally capable of expressing that difference. I think there's a strong case that it should.

M: Yeah, I would like to have started with my actual final way of putting it. It's like, in the 1750s, it wasn't that everyone was racist so much as it was that no one was not racist.

G: I actually think that's a much sharper formulation. It captures something about the distribution of beliefs rather than just their content.

I'd only make one qualification, because there were genuine exceptions even then. There were abolitionists by the mid-1700s, members of groups like the Quakers, and some Black writers and intellectuals arguing explicitly against racial hierarchy. So "no one" is a little stronger than history supports.

But if you soften it just slightly, I think you've got something quite insightful:

"In 1750, racism wasn't remarkable because almost nobody had a coherent concept of not being racist."

Or:

"It wasn't that everyone consciously chose racism. It was that racial hierarchy was the default intellectual framework."

Or my favorite variation:

"In the eighteenth century, racism wasn't one position among many; it was the background assumption against which people reasoned."

That gets at what I think you're trying to isolate.

It's a bit like asking whether someone in the year 1200 "believed in germs." They didn't reject germ theory—they didn't have the conceptual landscape in which accepting or rejecting germ theory was even possible. Their explanations occupied a different framework entirely.

The same caution applies to race, though with an important difference: there were dissenters. The reason I hesitate to say "no one was not racist" is that there were people who challenged slavery and argued for the equal humanity of Africans. However, even many of those early abolitionists still held paternalistic assumptions that we'd recognize today as racist. So the anti-racist category, in the modern sense, was genuinely rare.

I also think you've stumbled onto an interesting linguistic asymmetry.

Today, "racist" often implies not just holding false beliefs about race, but persisting in them despite living in a society where equality is widely recognized as both a moral and empirical norm. That's part of the emotional force the word carries.

Applying the same unqualified word to someone in 1750 can obscure that distinction. It may be morally appropriate in some contexts—the beliefs and institutions caused enormous harm—but descriptively it compresses two different situations:

Those people can be equally wrong, and their actions can be equally harmful, while still representing different kinds of historical and psychological phenomena.

So I think your instinct isn't really about excusing the past. It's about preserving a distinction between a society where prejudice is the air everyone breathes and a society where prejudice is a position someone adopts or maintains despite abundant alternatives. That's a meaningful distinction, and one that gets lost if we use exactly the same term without any qualification.

M: Yeah, I used a universal, but you know what I mean. The broad social construct of equality, or racial equality rather, was non-existent. Yeah, you had the Quakers, and as far as black writers, they were all important, but for what we're talking about, that's situationally not quite the same thing. Kind of like if you were to be in a situation where deer were able to make arguments about hunting licenses. The only oddity would be if they were arguing for them instead of against them. And I would say not even today that equality is an active choice. Equality was necessary in order to fight for the removal of the casual racism. But in practice, nowadays, it's like being racist is more effort than most people can understand. It's holding out against the lowest energy level, is what I'm saying. Honestly, I think that's where some people who still are fighting for equality run into problems as well. While institutional inequality may still exist and need to be dealt with, anyone who actually cares is seen as odd by people who feel like that's energy that's simply unnecessary. Equality by exhaustion kind of thing, although that's a little bit negative way of putting it, because the point is, energy that you could put towards actually caring about something, whether it's worthwhile or not, is instead being put towards energy that is being put towards an effort most people don't see as necessary. Like, almost as if everyone has a hobby, and people who are racist are seen as being involved in a really weird hobby that could be harmful. Anyway, I didn't read through your first answer because I wanted to refocus on the idea that I'm looking for a word that distinguishes between the focused racist of today versus the 1700s when racism was the background, not the anomaly.

G: I think I understand the distinction you're after more clearly now. You're not primarily distinguishing degrees of racism. You're distinguishing its cognitive status within a society.

In other words, you're looking for a pair like:

The word "racism" is doing double duty for both.

If I were inventing terminology, I'd probably avoid words that imply moral differences and instead emphasize where the belief sits.

Some possibilities:

I particularly like ambient.

Ambient racism: racial hierarchy is simply part of the intellectual atmosphere. People rarely stop to defend it because almost no one questions it.

versus

Active racism: racial hierarchy is consciously defended because it is no longer the default assumption.

Notice that this doesn't say one is morally better than the other. It says they're psychologically and sociologically different.


Your physics analogy about the "lowest energy state" is also interesting.

In 1750, the equilibrium state of society was racial hierarchy. To be egalitarian required energy because you had to push against nearly everyone around you.

In much of the modern West, on ordinary day-to-day interactions, the equilibrium has shifted. Most people don't spend their day affirming racial equality any more than they spend their day affirming that the Earth orbits the Sun. It's just part of the background assumptions. Someone who insists on racial hierarchy is now the one expending effort to sustain a minority worldview.

I would be cautious about extending that to all contexts, because there are ongoing debates about institutional discrimination, disparities, and policy. But I think your narrower point about ordinary interpersonal attitudes has merit as a sociological observation: for many people, racial equality is no longer experienced as an active political commitment but simply as the default expectation of how to treat others.


There's another distinction that philosophers sometimes make that I think gets close to your idea:

A belief can be transparent or opaque.

A transparent belief is one people almost never notice themselves holding because it forms part of the lens through which they view everything else. An opaque belief is one they explicitly identify with and defend.

You're describing racism moving from a transparent assumption to an opaque ideology.

That framing appeals to me because it doesn't imply that people in the eighteenth century were innocent or that modern racists are uniquely malicious. It says something different: the same general proposition occupied a different place in people's cognitive architecture.

So if I had to coin one pair that I thought would actually survive in discussion, I'd choose:

Those two immediately communicate that you're talking about the mode in which the belief exists, not just its content. I think that's much closer to the distinction you've been circling than "old racism" versus "new racism" or "scientific racism" versus "modern racism," because those terms end up describing what people believed rather than how those beliefs functioned within society.

M: It's interesting you put it that way, because from that perspective, I would actually say that a lot of the 1700s were innocent of the opaque racism, probably more than they would be held to if they were transplanted to today, simply because it was such an ambient existence of that inequality. Because to accuse them is to say they're going against the norm, so to speak. And at that point, the norm legally required that they recognize it to some degree, usually a passive one. And I think that a lot of friction arises from people who want to accuse each individual back then in conversation, when even the society is maybe not so much innocent, but never was given a chance to not be guilty. It's the accusation of original sin kind of thing. If you're born into a society where you have to know there's a direction to push before you can even start hitting the escape velocity to fight racism, holding everyone accountable for supporting the system is just unreasonable to me. The language falls short again because saying they were innocent is too accepting of the concept that existed, but you don't, it's not reasonable to hold someone who is born with a condition to account the way you would someone who invited that condition through their actions. A child born with cancer is not held to the equivalent as someone who smoked for 20 years and got cancer. That's why I'm asking you about what words you would use, like if you could formulate something in the way that English usually is by doing a portmanteau or crystallizing something around some bastardized Latin or something. In order to... Create a situation where the basic and imprecise binary situation isn't simply upheld by modifying it.

G: I think you've landed on what I would call a problem of agency, not a problem of morality.

The question isn't:

"Were they racist?"

The question is:

"How much agency did they have over becoming or remaining racist?"

Those are different questions, and English tends to collapse them.

I'd also make one historical caution. I don't think it's accurate to say most people in the 1700s were innocent in a complete sense, because there were contemporaries who challenged slavery, racial hierarchy, and the assumptions behind them. The existence of dissent means alternatives were imaginable, even if rare and costly. But I do think it's reasonable to say that the average person's degree of epistemic responsibility differed from that of someone today because the surrounding intellectual environment was radically different.

That distinction is what I think you're trying to encode.


As for coining a term, I actually don't think attaching another adjective to "racism" is enough. It keeps the focus on the content of the belief rather than its origin.

I'd instead coin a noun for beliefs inherited from an unquestioned cultural substrate.

Some possibilities:

1. Inheritism

Inheritism — a belief maintained primarily because it is inherited from the surrounding culture rather than consciously adopted.

Then:

"Eighteenth-century racial hierarchy was largely inheritist; modern racism is more often ideological."

I like this because it generalizes beyond race.


2. Basalism

From "basal."

Basal beliefs are the ones society starts with.

"Basal racialism."

That immediately evokes biology without carrying much prior baggage.


3. Ambientism

This follows from what we discussed.

Ambientism = beliefs absorbed from the environment rather than explicitly defended.

Then someone could say:

"His views weren't ideological racism so much as ambient racialism."


4. Orthoracism

From Greek ortho- ("accepted," "correct").

Not "correct" in the moral sense, but "orthodox."

Meaning:

The socially orthodox form of racial hierarchy.


5. Defaultism

Simple but surprisingly expressive.

A defaultist belief isn't actively chosen.

It's simply what loads when society boots.


My favorite, though, is one I hadn't thought of until reading your message:

Substrate racism

Think about it like geology.

Bedrock isn't what people consciously build every day.

It's simply what everything else rests on.

Then you have:

I like "substrate" because it avoids implying innocence or guilt. It describes where the belief resides.


There's one more idea I think is lurking beneath what you're saying.

English has a very strong tendency to treat moral responsibility as binary.

Either:

But moral philosophy often distinguishes at least three questions:

  1. Was the belief false?
  2. Could this person reasonably have known it was false?
  3. How much effort did they expend maintaining it?

You're trying to lexicalize question 2.

That's actually unusual.

We have words for what people believed and words for how bad those beliefs were, but we have remarkably few words for how cognitively available the alternative was.

That's why you're finding English frustrating.

If I were writing a paper, I'd probably introduce exactly that term:

Epistemic availability.

Then I'd say:

"The moral evaluation of a belief should be distinguished from the epistemic availability of its alternatives."

That phrase gets at the heart of your concern. It lets you say, for example, that slavery was profoundly wrong while also recognizing that, for many people in a given society, rejecting its underlying assumptions required intellectual resources, experiences, or social influences that were far less available than they are today. It avoids reducing the discussion to either "everyone was equally blameworthy" or "no one was responsible," and instead asks a more nuanced question about what alternatives people could realistically perceive and adopt. I think that's the conceptual gap you're trying to fill.

M: There's also the question of intellectual accessibility, and I don't mean in terms of intelligence. I mean that the argument against racism is nowhere near fully formulated in a way that could be gotten to by otherwise well-meaning people. It's one thing to say now that there's no reason to consider skin as being part of intellect, but there are a lot of little intellectual assumptions that have been taught over time that don't come out during that argument. Meanwhile, at that point, all of those had been directed towards the idea of proving some degree of superiority. So again, declaring absolute innocence might not be right, but when the only other option is to declare absolute guilt, I have to go with the American standard and say that unless you can prove them to be completely guilty, you have to choose them to be completely innocent. But as you said, that's not comfortable, so we need a different word or to introduce another word that already exists to that spectrum in a way that allows for there to be varying degrees rather than absolutes. I cannot call them guilty because the people that I've seen being complete and utter racists nowadays implies that if there's a distinction between the two, and we're talking in absolutes, then the person who is definitely guilty has demonstrated the potential of innocence in the other. I like your portmanteau of the orthodox racism. It creates a single word that cannot be rhetorically picked apart in the same way as a modifier. And it's, well, it sounds classically English, so it's not linguistically intrusive, and it gets the point across. Although I would want to introduce the modern willful racism as being its own word, so that under the heading of racism, you would have ortho-racism and whatever the other one would be.

G: I think you've identified something that goes beyond race. You're trying to distinguish between beliefs sustained by social inheritance and beliefs sustained by conscious commitment.

Where I'd refine your framing is here:

"unless you can prove them to be completely guilty, you have to choose them to be completely innocent."

I don't think that works well for historical evaluation because guilt and innocence aren't usually binary in that context. Someone can participate in a profoundly unjust institution while having a very different degree of agency, knowledge, or opportunity than someone else. The institution, the beliefs, and the person's responsibility can all be evaluated separately.

But I think you're absolutely right that English lacks a compact way to encode those distinctions.

I really like the structure you're converging on:

Racism

The second word should mirror the first by describing how the belief is held rather than what it says.

Here are some possibilities.

Orthoracism / Contraracism

From contra- ("against").

The irony is intentional:

This captures the shift in social position without commenting on morality.


Orthoracism / Voluntaracism

From voluntas (will).

This emphasizes that the modern form involves active commitment.

It sounds a little cumbersome, though.


Orthoracism / Electoracism

From electio (choice).

The point is that one is inherited; the other is chosen.


Orthoracism / Ideoracism

From idea or ideology.

This one is probably my favorite.

The symmetry is nice.


There's another pair that occurred to me that I like even more:

Normally, "revisionary" has neutral historical uses, but here it would mean someone is revising back toward a hierarchy that is no longer culturally normative.


The reason I like orthoracism is that it changes the axis of classification.

Most discussions classify racism by intensity:

mild ↔︎ severe

or by object:

anti-Black, antisemitic, anti-Asian, etc.

You're proposing to classify it by relationship to the surrounding epistemic environment:

orthodox ↔︎ ideological (or chosen).

That's actually a different dimension altogether.

One thing I'd be careful about, though, is not making the taxonomy depend on historical periods. There can still be orthoracism today in the sense that people inherit stereotypes or assumptions from their immediate community without ever consciously examining them. Likewise, there were ideologues in the eighteenth century who actively elaborated and defended racial hierarchies beyond simply accepting the status quo. So I'd define the terms by mode of belief, not by century.

For example:

That gives you a taxonomy that's portable across history. You can then say that in many eighteenth-century societies, orthoracism predominated, whereas in many contemporary Western societies, explicit racial hierarchy more often takes the form of ideoracism. That captures the distinction you've been pursuing without requiring either category to belong exclusively to one era. I think that's a stronger conceptual framework than tying one label to "the 1700s" and the other to "today," because it lets you analyze different societies—and even different individuals within the same society—using the same vocabulary.

M: Ah, yeah, contra is a word that is malleable enough in English that I wouldn't use it. Idea seems like the better version, or, sorry, I pronounced that wrong, the I-D-E-O, ideo version. So ideo-racism. Those are prefixes which could be moved to other situations, such as, you know, orthomisogyny versus ideomisogyny. And as importantly, indicates a similar concept. Although with the misogyny thing, I feel like that one might have a little bit more complexity because it's all being filtered towards modern concepts in a way that makes me question whether the past was actually as purely misogynist in any form as it seems like it was today. I mean, even the current ideomisogynists, they tend to be, they tend to function at a more grievous level. conceptual, if that makes sense. Like, at least half of them would acknowledge that their mother was an important force in their life, which, from a purely misogynistic point of view, should not be an actual thing. And I don't mean in terms of demonstrating what a woman should be, but I mean actually being a powerful force in growth and support and organization and all of that. So when I think about the idea of misogyny as ortho-misogyny, I wonder how much of that is colored by what I've learned instead of it being a more subtle and nuanced situation that has only collapsed with time rather than when it was actually in place. I mean, no doubt, on the legal side, everything was misogynistic, but I'm wondering if in practice it was the kind of thing where, except in extreme cases, was it almost like jaywalking in that, while it was strictly legally encoded, in practice, did everyone adhere to it, or were there only a few people who were looking to be grumpy about something? who held to that strictness, and the rest simply let it go because on a daily basis, all they had to deal with was whether they respected their mother and whether they would do what she told them.

G: I actually think you've hit on something important with ideo-. It doesn't merely mean "modern." It means the belief has become an object of conscious identity and defense. That's a distinction that generalizes well.

For example:

Likewise:

That taxonomy isn't tied to any century. It's about how the belief is held.


On misogyny, though, I think you're right to hesitate before assuming the historical picture was psychologically identical to today's examples.

One thing historians of gender often emphasize is that many premodern societies were patriarchal without necessarily fitting what most people imagine when they hear "misogyny." Those concepts overlap, but they aren't identical.

For example, a nineteenth-century man might sincerely believe:

while also believing:

That isn't equality, and it's certainly compatible with discriminatory laws and institutions. But psychologically it isn't the same thing as someone who simply despises women or sees them as worthless.

In fact, a lot of patriarchal systems rested on the idea that women were different and indispensable, not worthless. Those beliefs could still justify denying women legal rights, education, or political power, but the conceptual framework was often one of hierarchy rather than blanket contempt.

That's why I think your mother example is interesting.

If someone says,

"My mother was the strongest influence in my life."

that tells us very little by itself about whether they're misogynistic. Many patriarchal societies assigned mothers enormous influence within the household while simultaneously excluding women from formal political or legal authority. Those two things can coexist.

So I might distinguish three separate axes:

  1. Institutional structure — Who can own property, vote, hold office, sign contracts?
  2. Interpersonal attitudes — How are women treated in everyday life?
  3. Underlying anthropology — What is believed about men's and women's capacities, roles, and moral status?

Those don't always move together. A society can legally subordinate women while still expecting men to honor, protect, or defer to mothers in many contexts. Conversely, a society can have formal legal equality while individuals hold deeply hostile views toward women.

That complexity is one reason historians are often careful to distinguish patriarchy from misogyny. They are related, but not interchangeable.


I also like where your linguistic project is heading because it shifts the question from:

"Was this person a racist?"

to

"In what cognitive mode did this person hold racial beliefs?"

or from:

"Was this person misogynistic?"

to

"In what cognitive mode did this person understand gender?"

That's a richer taxonomy. It lets you compare people who hold similar propositions but for very different reasons and in very different intellectual environments.

One refinement I would suggest, though, is considering whether ortho- and ideo- should be treated as general prefixes rather than tied to any specific prejudice. You could imagine discussing orthonationalism versus ideonationalism, orthoclassism versus ideoclassism, or even orthotheism versus ideotheism. In each case, the distinction isn't about the content of the belief but about whether it functions as an inherited social default or as a consciously articulated ideology. That's a surprisingly broad conceptual tool, and I think that's part of why it feels satisfying: you're not just inventing two words, you're proposing a new axis along which many belief systems can be classified.

M: Yeah, once again, I came up with the concept that was most interesting at the end of my little ramble and then unthinkingly sent it instead of starting over. Because as I speak it out, I'm wondering if the people who were orthomisogynists were in operation really more speaking more to the superiority of the white male than actual denigration of females. It's an important distinction because even current ideomisogynists, I think, mistake their actual beliefs on that front. They use the language because it wouldn't be rhetorically usable to claim that you are superior unless there's a really, really good reason to do so. So instead, you have to undercut people who aren't you. But in practice and upon examination, I think you would find that what they are labeling misogyny is not simply because of the respect that they can hold for particular females. A true misogynist would have to be purely misogynist. And so what they actually are arguing is that they deserve to be held superior, but the only way to do so, given the not even shitshow, but even just the averageness of them as a person, claiming superiority would be obviously disputable, so instead they have to attack the people who otherwise they would be forced to compare themselves as equals to. And again, I don't even mean that they're doing this maliciously, but just kind of as a default way to maintain an ego that they feel is deserving of more than it has, whether it's actually more deserving or not. Which would explain why so many of them end up supporting Donald, because it's demonstrable that pretty much any statement he has ever made, which was supposed to hype himself up, is connected to some form of denigration of others. He's very bad at demonstrating his value as being preferable, so he has to pull everyone else down to make himself look better. It's the same kind of thing, only done by someone who is unapologetic and... A recorded practitioner of this method.

G: I think there are two ideas here that are worth separating, because one is a conceptual distinction I think is quite strong, while the other is a psychological explanation that is plausible in some cases but probably not universal.

The first is this:

Is misogyny primarily about hating women, or is it about asserting male superiority?

That's actually a long-standing question in feminist philosophy. Some theorists argue that misogyny is best understood not as generalized hatred of women, but as a system for policing or enforcing a gender hierarchy. On that view, a person can deeply love or admire particular women—especially mothers, wives, or daughters who fit their expectations—while still supporting a broader hierarchy that privileges men. The target isn't "women" in the abstract so much as women who violate or challenge the expected order.

That fits remarkably well with your observation that respect for one's mother doesn't, by itself, falsify misogyny. It may simply indicate that the person distinguishes between "good women" and women who step outside the role they think women ought to occupy.

Where I think your thought gets especially interesting is when you reframe the hierarchy itself.

Instead of asking:

"Why do they denigrate women?"

you ask:

"Is the real psychological goal to elevate themselves?"

Those aren't identical questions.

A hierarchy has two mathematically equivalent descriptions:

Social psychology has long recognized that people sometimes pursue positive distinctiveness by comparing themselves favorably to an out-group. That doesn't mean every sexist or racist person is consciously compensating for insecurity—there are many motivations for prejudice—but your description captures one mechanism that has empirical support in some contexts.

Your Donald Trump example illustrates the distinction. One interpretation of many of his rhetorical patterns is that they emphasize relative status: opponents are "losers," "low IQ," "weak," "crooked," and so on. Whether one sees that as strategic branding, personality, or something else, the rhetoric often works by reducing others' standing while implicitly elevating his own. That's a recognizable rhetorical style. It doesn't necessarily follow that everyone attracted to him shares the same psychology, but the mechanism you describe is a real one that psychologists discuss under concepts like status competition and social comparison.


This also makes me wonder whether your ortho-/ideo- distinction could be paired with another axis.

Right now you have a distinction based on how the belief is held:

But you could also classify prejudices by their psychological function:

Those aren't always the same. Someone might not feel much personal hostility toward women or another group but still strongly support a hierarchical social order. Conversely, someone might feel intense animosity without caring much about formal hierarchy.

So you end up with two independent dimensions:

That gives you a richer framework than treating all prejudice as a single phenomenon.

One last point: I think you're right to be cautious about assuming that historical patriarchy maps neatly onto modern misogyny. The legal and social inequalities were profound, but the everyday psychology could vary enormously. Some men undoubtedly held deep contempt for women. Others may have sincerely believed women were indispensable, morally superior in some respects, or central to family life while simultaneously believing they should not vote, own property independently, or hold public office. Those beliefs are still hierarchical, but they are not psychologically identical to indiscriminate hatred.

That, to me, reinforces the value of the vocabulary you're trying to build. Rather than asking, "Was this person a misogynist?" you can ask several narrower questions: Was the hierarchy inherited or consciously defended? Was it primarily about elevating one group or denigrating another? How much room did the surrounding culture provide for recognizing alternatives? Those questions preserve distinctions that the single label "misogynist" often obscures.

M: Well, the connection between the misogyny and the racism is that the two aren't necessarily in the ortho version equivalent. One was saying that a certain group of people was definitely inferior and with all kinds of pseudoscientific ways of justifying it, while the other one was kind of an almost modest way of claiming superiority in a way that still allowed the other to be thought of as human, just not as good of a human. While when we get into the ideoracist and ideomisogynist thing, there often is an element of denigration. Like I was saying, it might not be complete, at least with the misogyny version, but yeah, actually, that kind of demonstrates the point you were making. I go along with it, although I would say that the idea of ortho-racism, ortho-misogyny, etc., all... are the more secure concepts that the prefix implies, or should imply, classical situations where, in terms of society, it wasn't so much an enforced ideology as simply the lack of a significant presence of opposing thought. So, like, orthomisogyny was almost not misogyny, except by current standards, simply because there was no broad movement towards any other direction. Anything or anyone that thought otherwise was either struck down or indulged as an entertaining aberration. Kind of like how you only recently have electric cars actually become an option. For a long while, it wasn't a question of choosing gas-powered cars. There were cars and all of them were gas-powered. Anything that used anything else... got a label that let you know that it wasn't a quote-unquote normal car. That's, I think that's an accessible way of explaining why I think the distinction should be made. Ortho-racism was not a question of guilt unless you were saying that 99% of the society was willfully attempting to suppress black people as an ideological constraint, which just simply wasn't true. The ideology really was not broad enough in its thought or awareness to be thought of as a competitor in the mental sphere. And I say that even about the people who are arguing for it, more or less, because it seems like they weren't in an area where they had explored sufficiently or ceded the idea sufficiently to really be thought of as being a competitor. Eventually, they would become one, but at that point, it's like an electric car. There was still effort to be made to really consider it as... a competing approach, let alone the proper one in society. And all of that is why I'm saying that ortho versions are kind of the bedrock, while the instances of IDO variations are more in need of contextual definition. We're not discussing about dominance versus aversion for this exercise. It's an interesting concept, but it requires more psychological evaluation of a group. And when we're talking about the 1700s, that is so far removed that a full analysis is not likely, at the very least in terms of being comparably complete. I mean, we're sitting here hypothesizing about historical misogynists, and I don't think we even entered into the idea that there are some people for whom misogyny might have been a deeply held belief, but that it was because psychologically they were prepared to have a supreme dislike for something, and misogyny was simply the category that fit the bill for the way that their life went, while others in different situations with the same psyches might instead become supremely racist or hate the government or believe that aliens are in control of everything. More of a psychological pitfall that was badly addressed than an actual case of an ideo-racist or ideo-misogynist.

G: I think your framework has become considerably clearer over the course of this discussion, and I'd state it this way:

The ortho-/ideo- distinction is not a moral distinction. It's an epistemic one.

That's the part I think is genuinely novel.

You're not saying orthoracism is "less bad." You're saying it occupies a fundamentally different place in a culture's cognitive landscape.

Using your car analogy:

The act may look similar, but its relationship to the available conceptual landscape has changed.

That is a distinction English doesn't currently express very well.


Where I'd make one small adjustment is in the way you define ortho-.

You said:

"there was no broad movement towards any other direction."

I would broaden it slightly to:

There was no broadly available competing framework.

That leaves room for the Quakers, early abolitionists, early feminists, dissidents, and so on.

Their existence doesn't undermine the category because what matters isn't whether someone somewhere had another idea. It's whether the alternative had become a live option for ordinary participants in the culture.

That's analogous to your electric-car example. There were electric vehicles more than a century ago, but that doesn't mean most consumers faced a genuine choice between gas and electric in 1910.


I also think your idea has a useful consequence.

Normally people ask:

"Were eighteenth-century Americans racist?"

Your taxonomy changes the question to:

"Was racism orthoracist or ideoracist within eighteenth-century American society?"

That is a much richer historical question.

Likewise:

"Is this person's misogyny orthomisogynistic or ideomisogynistic?"

instead of treating all prejudice as psychologically identical.


One thing I especially like is that your prefixes don't have to be tied to prejudice.

You could imagine:

The prefix isn't saying what is believed.

It's saying how that belief exists within the surrounding intellectual ecosystem.

That makes it a fairly general conceptual tool.


The only thing I'd probably avoid is defining ortho- in terms of absence of guilt.

Not because your intuition is wrong, but because I think it weakens the taxonomy.

Suppose someone in 1750 actively profits from slavery, brutalizes enslaved people, and suppresses abolitionist arguments.

I'd still call that orthoracism if the beliefs are largely inherited from the dominant orthodoxy.

But I wouldn't want the term itself to imply reduced moral responsibility. The responsibility would depend on additional facts: what they did, what alternatives they encountered, how they responded to them, and so forth.

In other words, I think the taxonomy becomes more robust if ortho- describes the cultural status of the belief, not the moral status of the believer.

Then moral evaluation becomes a second, independent axis.


One last observation, because I think it gets at why this has held your attention.

Most modern discussions classify ideas by content:

racism

sexism

nationalism

or by intensity:

mild

extreme

You're proposing a classification by epistemic availability.

That is, you're asking:

"Was this belief inherited as the default operating system, or was it consciously adopted among available alternatives?"

That's not a question most everyday language can express compactly.

So while I don't know whether orthoracism and ideoracism would ultimately be the best labels, I do think you've identified a real gap in the vocabulary. The distinction you're trying to capture is coherent: it separates the social and cognitive status of a belief from both its content and its moral evaluation. Even if someone preferred different prefixes, that underlying axis is a useful one for thinking about historical belief systems.

M: Yeah, here's another example of the difference between, okay, you could say orthonutritionism. People act as though certain diets were better or something like that when making arguments, you know, like the, what is it, the caveman diet or whatever the hell it's called. The problem is that you really can't say whether they were healthier because at that point, food choice wasn't an option. They were dealing with a world where they ate what they could find or something like that. That didn't make it better or worse. It's at that point, it was the only option. It's the same concept. allowing for the presence of guilt also weakens the taxonomy. And in a much stronger way, guilt implies a willful decision, but when there was no will involved in your decision to assign guilt, at best, you are ignorant of the person, which is not where you want to be when you're making a judgment about someone else. But to avoid, we would have to be careful in the approach. But guilt requires choice, and sin requires a choice. To assign sin without choice is not assigning sin, it's assigning blame. So casually assigning blame without justification is as bad as what people who do so feel about people who were ortho-racist or something like that. I might have gotten the language a little tangled up there, but my point is that you cannot casually do something in order to accuse someone who was casually doing something without also being to blame yourself. At that point, if the ortho-racists are guilty, so are the people who have not thoughtfully looked at the racism there and have continued. Why they are, how do I even call it? They're being jerks, basically. Hypocritical, maybe? They're accusing people they haven't met of doing something that they wouldn't have any control over any more than, for instance, the color of their skin. Morality and racism is not acceptable from a perspective where there are other options, but when there is no other option, assigning blame or guilt is needlessly ignorant to me. The moral responsibility of any given person is to make their choices based on what's in front of them. Unless you consider everyone to be their own combination of rhetoric done with Einstein able to pull full concepts out of their butt and experiences and put them into words that they can turn to theories. There is no acceptable reason to expect the average person in 1700 to look at the world around them and say, Hey, racism is bad. It took us years to get to the point where we can't say it, and it's condescending to turn around and say, Wow, you guys couldn't do this without 200 years? What morons. Maybe that's the reason why I feel like the term is so important to separate, just because ideal racism is certainly a choice, and certainly invites guilt. But assigning guilt would, by the same logic, mean that every bad choice made by the current administration somehow means that the average American who disagrees but really doesn't know what else to do except wait for help this time, is somehow complicit and guilty.

G: I think you've identified a real tension, but I'd separate two different claims that are getting intertwined.

The first claim is one I think is quite strong:

The moral evaluation of a person should take into account the alternatives that were realistically available to them.

That's a principle that appears in many ethical traditions. We routinely judge actions partly in light of what a person knew, what they could reasonably have known, and what options they had. A physician in 1750 who used bloodletting is generally evaluated differently from one who insists on it after modern evidence overwhelmingly rejects it. Not because the patient suffers less, but because the epistemic situation is different.

Where I'd be more cautious is with the stronger claim:

If there was no meaningful alternative, there can be no guilt.

Sometimes that's true, but not always. Even within an orthodoxy, people can make choices about how they treat other human beings. Consider two hypothetical eighteenth-century slave owners who both accept the prevailing racial theories. One minimizes cruelty, frees enslaved people when possible, and expresses doubts about the institution. Another is gratuitously violent and actively works to suppress dissent. They share the same broad orthodoxy, but most people would say they differ in moral responsibility because of the choices they make within that framework.

So I think your taxonomy works best if it captures the epistemic environment, while leaving room to evaluate individual conduct separately.

That actually strengthens your proposal rather than weakening it.

For example:

Those are independent questions.


I also think your comparison to contemporary citizens points to a useful distinction.

Suppose someone says:

"Every American today is personally guilty for every action of the current administration."

Most people would reject that because responsibility is distributed unevenly. Voting, protesting, holding office, influencing policy, remaining uninformed, actively supporting a policy—those all represent different forms and degrees of agency.

Likewise, historians generally distinguish between living within a system, benefiting from it, reinforcing it, resisting it, or directing it. Those aren't morally identical positions.

So I think your instinct is right that collective description ("this society was racially hierarchical") and individual culpability ("this particular person deserves moral blame") shouldn't be collapsed into one statement.


One thing I especially like about your framework is that it encourages asking questions in a different order.

Instead of:

  1. Was this person racist?

You ask:

  1. Was the belief orthoracist or ideoracist?
  2. How much agency did this individual have?
  3. What choices did they make within that framework?

That sequence prevents the taxonomy from doing all the moral work by itself.


Your nutrition example also illustrates something subtle.

Nobody says:

"Paleolithic humans irrationally chose not to eat tomatoes."

That would be odd because tomatoes, agriculture, refrigeration, global trade, and modern nutrition science weren't available to them. We don't infer irrationality merely because later knowledge exists.

The analogy isn't perfect—racial hierarchies involve moral relationships between people, whereas food choices often involve constraints of environment—but it captures the point about available conceptual options. Historical evaluation often asks not only whether a belief was mistaken, but what alternatives could realistically have been recognized and acted upon.

So I think the deepest contribution of your proposed vocabulary isn't that it absolves or condemns anyone. It's that it insists on asking an epistemic question before making a moral one:

Was this belief functioning as the unquestioned background of a culture, or as a consciously maintained ideology among live alternatives?

That's a useful distinction regardless of where one ultimately lands on moral responsibility. It gives you a way to describe historical belief systems without immediately collapsing description, explanation, and judgment into a single label. That seems to be the conceptual gap you've been trying to fill throughout this conversation.

M: In your example, you're making my point, not a new one. A person who is gratuitously violent, that's someone who is drifting into ideal racism, or at the very least, is definitely behaving non-Christian. What they are guilty of is the violence at that point. It's conflating two different sources, potentially, of guilt, one of which is, you know, maybe not absolved, but comprehensible from modern perspectives in a way that doesn't assign guilt. But someone taking care of a child and someone violently beating a child are two different things. Someone taking care of a pet and violently beating a pet are two different things. That's because there are two different vectors, and I'm saying that with ortho-racism, that vector is involuntary at that point. Now, if you could demonstrate that there was someone who knew the racism was wrong and was in the position to change not just their own action, but society, Then you could call it actually a source of guilt to some degree or other, but in terms of ortho situations, there is no vector for guilt, but it doesn't remove the person's responsibility for not being harsh, violent, or enjoying the situation. One of the reasons I think carefully about my pets and even the people that I get close to is because I end up worrying that I will feel responsible for them, and while that's overemphasized in my psychology, it shows an exaggeration of what I'm talking about. If something is yours, you are expected to care for it. Caring for it does not involve beating it, especially if it turns out to be an enjoyment or a focus upon your joy. That's the reason why, even though prison guards are given some leeway, they aren't allowed to beat people, or at least legally not supposed to. There are errors there. But ideologically, the problem isn't who is under whose care, but how they are treated while they are there. So trying to pretend as though the ortho-racism is a vector for guilt in that comparison is ridiculous. I'm pushing back because you keep trying to introduce the idea of guilt as being present. I'm not trying to argue that it's absent, but I'm trying to argue that it's unrelated to the topic at hand. When you have no choice, there is no guilt. It can be horrible, it can be regretful, even depending on the situation. But if it's a Sophie's choice, does that mean that that Sophie is always going to be guilty? How you act within those restraints defines whether there's actual guilt involved. You may have participated, but you aren't guilty in the way that someone acting the same way today would be.

G: I think I see where we've been talking past each other.

I kept treating orthoracism as a sociological category. You're trying to define it as a moral-epistemic category.

In your framework, the defining feature isn't merely that the belief is culturally orthodox. It's that the belief is not meaningfully available to the person's will as a competing proposition.

That's a stronger claim.

So if I restate your position as rigorously as I can, it would be something like this:

Orthoracism is a form of racial hierarchy whose existence derives from an inherited, socially unexamined framework rather than an individually maintained ideology. Because no broadly accessible competing framework exists, orthoracism is not, by itself, a vector of individual moral culpability. Moral culpability arises from the choices a person makes within that framework, not from inhabiting the framework itself.

That, I think, is a coherent definition.

Where philosophers or historians might disagree isn't over its internal logic, but over the empirical question of when alternatives become sufficiently available that a person can be held responsible for not recognizing them.


Your prison-guard example actually clarifies the distinction.

Imagine two guards.

Both accept the institution.

One says:

"This is the prison. These are the rules. I'll do my duty without unnecessary cruelty."

The other says:

"I enjoy hurting prisoners."

You're saying the guilt vector is the second statement.

The first may be participating in an unjust institution, but participation and sadism are different moral questions.

Likewise:

A parent in 1750 who sincerely believes races occupy different natural stations but tries to care for everyone under his authority is different from someone who delights in cruelty or actively invents new rationales for oppression.

The first embodies the orthodoxy.

The second introduces an additional voluntary moral component.


Where I would still hesitate is at the phrase:

"When you have no choice, there is no guilt."

Not because I disagree with the underlying intuition, but because "no choice" can mean several different things.

For example:

Those aren't always identical.

Your taxonomy seems to depend most heavily on conceptual accessibility.

That is:

Could an ordinary person in this society realistically formulate and sustain the competing worldview?

That's a much narrower and more precise criterion than simply saying "they had no choice."


I also think your comparison to Sophie's Choice is revealing.

You're saying:

A moral evaluation has to distinguish between

  1. the framework someone was placed inside,
  2. the actions they voluntarily chose within that framework.

Otherwise, we collapse constraint into culpability.

Whether one ultimately agrees with where you draw the line, that's a recognizable principle in ethics. Legal systems distinguish between voluntary and involuntary acts; many moral traditions distinguish between temptation, ignorance, negligence, and intentional wrongdoing. You're extending that style of reasoning to inherited worldviews.


One thing I think you've discovered, though, is that ortho- may be carrying too much weight.

You're asking it to mean all of the following:

That's a lot for one prefix.

If you ever developed this into a formal framework, I'd probably make those explicit axioms rather than expecting the prefix itself to carry them all.

For example:

Axiom 1: Ortho-beliefs are inherited from the dominant cognitive environment rather than consciously adopted.

Axiom 2: The mere possession of an ortho-belief does not constitute individual moral culpability.

Axiom 3: Moral culpability arises from voluntary conduct and from the maintenance or extension of a belief after meaningful alternatives become cognitively available.

That way, orthoracism doesn't just become a synonym for "old racism." It becomes part of a broader theory about how inherited belief systems relate to moral responsibility.

Whether people ultimately accept those axioms is a separate question, but I think stating them explicitly would make the framework much easier to analyze and debate than trying to pack all of that meaning into the prefix alone. That's the step that, to me, would turn your idea from an interesting linguistic distinction into a more fully articulated philosophical model.

M: I think that, at least in the absence of more detail, that works as a definition, particularly because if a claim of any kind of guilt or innocence because of a situation, what it does address the idea of there being a spectrum of values within that situation. Like the guy who treated his slaves well, comparatively well, of course, and in a way that's difficult to gauge because at that point, luxury was a lot different than it is right now. I admit not having to sleep on the same unwashed mattress 365 days a year, but instead having someone that would come by and wash the mattress every couple months. So the left is less at, it's at the, from modern context, narrow differentiating. Saying that someone treating their slaves well was a good person and that they would be neutral, anyone being an asshole is still being an asshole. Anyone working towards some form of equality, even if it's kind of a half-assed version because they're having to come up with it on their own and despite it being easier on them not to do so, they're the only ones who actually are in a weird area because temporarily they might be thought of as being morally upstanding, even if in the totality of their actions, the modern analysis would be that they were still racist. Not in a moral sense, but literally, the definition of prejudice, or at least one of them, is judging an entire group over something they don't have control over, instead of looking at each individual situation and evaluating from there. And when you get to the idea of choice, you have at least acknowledged that with all of those variables, that each situation is different, and making a uniform judgment is unallowable if you are trying to determine a degree of guilt. Because you're right, there can be a variety. But someone who is, okay, if someone was completely non-racist by even modern standards back then, but they were also a homeless outcast with no influence and only could live by accepting donations from people who did subscribe, where was their power at that point? What kind of modification could they make within a standard definition of human ability? Yes, of course, an exceptional person could still find a way to affect some kind of change. That's what would make them exceptional, not simply a outcast living at the pleasure of people who subscribed to ideals that they didn't completely accept at that point.

G: I think your framework becomes strongest if you distinguish three different questions, because I noticed that toward the end of your message you were naturally separating them.

  1. What did the person believe?
  2. What options were realistically available to them?
  3. What did they do with the options they had?

Those are independent variables.

Where I think your "ortho-/ideo-" distinction really shines is that it lives almost entirely in question 2, not questions 1 or 3.

That is unusual. Most moral vocabularies classify people by what they believed or what they did. You're trying to classify them by the structure of their decision space.

I don't think that's a trivial contribution.


Your homeless dissident example gets at something philosophers sometimes call capacity or effective agency.

Imagine two abolitionists in 1790.

Suppose both arrive at essentially the same moral conclusion.

Even then, most people would say the legislator bears greater responsibility to act because he possesses greater ability to alter institutions. Conversely, if neither acts, we often judge the legislator more harshly because his opportunities were greater.

So opportunity itself comes in layers:

Those don't necessarily rise and fall together.


I also noticed something interesting about your taxonomy.

Originally, I thought you were classifying beliefs.

Now I'm not so sure.

I think you're actually trying to classify moral environments.

Orthoracism isn't just "a racist belief."

It's a social environment in which racist assumptions are so foundational that the average person's moral reasoning begins from them rather than choosing them.

That's subtly different.

In your framework, someone doesn't become orthoracist because of an internal decision.

They become orthoracist because that's the moral atmosphere into which they're born.

The individual choices begin afterward.


One thing I particularly like is that your framework resists what I would call historical exceptionalism.

There's a temptation to imagine that if I had been born in 1750, I would naturally have arrived at twenty-first century conclusions.

History suggests that people are profoundly shaped by the intellectual resources available to them. That doesn't mean individuals never transcend their era—clearly some do—but it does mean that we should be cautious about assuming we would have been among them.

Your taxonomy formalizes that caution. It says, in effect, "Before assigning moral blame for a belief, ask what the cognitive landscape looked like."


I think there's one refinement that would make your framework even more precise.

Rather than saying:

"Orthoracism carries no guilt."

I'd say:

"Orthoracism is not itself a culpability-bearing category."

That sounds technical, but it makes an important distinction.

It means:

That's a cleaner philosophical statement because it avoids making claims about every individual while preserving your central point that the framework itself is not an object of moral blame in the same way an adopted ideology is.

In fact, I think your terminology ends up resembling an idea in jurisprudence. Courts don't just ask, "What happened?" They also ask about mens rea—the mental state behind the act. Your proposal is analogous, except the focus is on the epistemic background rather than criminal intent. You're asking us to distinguish between beliefs that arise from an inherited conceptual environment and beliefs that are consciously maintained in the presence of viable alternatives.

Whether someone ultimately agrees with every implication, I think that's a coherent philosophical project. It moves the discussion away from binary labels toward a more structured account of how belief, agency, and moral responsibility interact across different historical contexts.

M: You see, if you think that my perspective is unusual, it's because I'm talking about people that I can't judge, like in any form. Anyone contemporary with me, I can at least attempt to discover certain elements in their grace. I can't talk to people in the past, but we have a much better idea of the society of the past because we're not in it. I actually have to get some perspective going. Saying, I would never do something, is a really conceited statement when you consider how often what someone would say that about is, in fact, far removed from their own circumstances in the moment. It's silly to believe that the person making that choice would be the same person who is making the assertion that they don't do it. And for me, heavily in French, what they believe society would be would have long followed extension of a society that takes conviction, that I feel as though the one certainty. that they would maintain their societal ideology in the past, the more likely they are to have been exactly the kind of person they're condemning because at that point, it was still not a personal choice. It was a societal inheritance. Their reaction comes from their societal inheritance. Therefore, you know, if they actually had grown up at that point, they would have been bought in just as hard psychologically, assuming all things could be equal at the lines. And that is such a complex idea that it's just baffling. Plus I see, as I keep reading, that you kind of went in this direction. The only problem I have with the term culpability-bearing category is how intellectual and stuffy that sounds. Trying to get across the idea that someone may have some complaint. You've got as high of a vocabulary on command. It might not get the point across. Other than that, yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say, that it's not that it solves the problem so much as it reframes the situation to a much more comprehensible one. There was no guilt, no one was evil. The whole situation was shitty and it would have been better if people had managed to avoid it. But that always still not the same as saying that any one person was responsible for the evil. I mean, it really becomes difficult if you start examining it because even the people who really abused the situation performed a kind of backhanded service because if everyone had been, quote unquote, It's arguable that's one of the reasons why suffrage and all of that has been such an uphill climb comparatively in terms of defining the morality of it. Even people who define themselves as being completely misogynist, not in those words, but who say that they aren't misogynist, they just know that women are inferior. Even they don't think of women as being less than human, if just because that would mean that their children would by inheritance be less than human. And so it has more or less always been the case that abuse of a spouse, for the given value of abuse at that time, was unacceptable, as opposed to slavery where the extremes were thought of as being a sign of bad moral character, but not actually wrong. And so with all of that in mind. Assigning some degree of guilt seems, like I said, condescending and a little bit prejudiced.

G: I actually think one sentence in what you just said is the strongest philosophical point you've made in this entire conversation:

"It's not that it solves the problem so much as it reframes the situation to a much more comprehensible one."

That, to me, is the right ambition for a piece of terminology. Good terminology doesn't settle moral debates; it prevents people from asking the wrong question.

I also think I have a better sense now of why you keep pushing back on "guilt." You aren't trying to exonerate historical actors in the abstract. You're objecting to a category mistake.

The category mistake is treating

an inherited cognitive environment

as though it were

a voluntary moral decision.

Those are different things.


I also agree with something else you said that often gets overlooked:

"Saying 'I would never have done that' is a really conceited statement."

Not because it's impossible to know anything about ourselves, but because it implicitly assumes that you would somehow be transported into the past with your current education, concepts, language, scientific knowledge, and moral vocabulary intact.

That's almost never the thought experiment people actually mean.

If the thought experiment is instead:

"You are born in 1725, educated in 1725, surrounded by 1725 institutions, and never exposed to twenty-first century ideas..."

then the question becomes much harder.

History gives us examples of people who challenged prevailing norms, so it's not impossible. But it's also hard to assume we'd be among them. Humility seems like a reasonable starting point.


There's one place where I'd still phrase things a little differently than you.

You said:

"There was no guilt, no one was evil."

I think I'd instead say:

"The orthoracist framework itself is morally non-accusatory."

The reason I prefer that wording is that it leaves room for the genuinely cruel people you've already acknowledged.

Someone who delights in torture, cruelty, or domination isn't just expressing the inherited framework. They're adding something of their own. Likewise, someone who risks their own standing to argue for greater justice is also adding something.

So the framework becomes morally neutral—not because its consequences were neutral, but because it isn't where you locate the individual's praise or blame.

That strikes me as a more stable formulation.


There's another aspect of your proposal that I think is worth highlighting.

You're trying to prevent what we might call retrospective narcissism.

That's the assumption that

"If I had lived then, I obviously would have been one of the enlightened few."

History doesn't support that level of confidence.

The people who were exceptional generally were exceptional. They often paid real social, economic, or personal costs for their views. It's easy to admire them in retrospect; it's much harder to know whether we would have accepted those costs ourselves had we lived in their circumstances.

Your framework builds that humility into the language.


One final thought about your terminology.

I think ortho- may not even be the most important part.

The really important innovation is the implicit opposite.

You're saying that beliefs can exist in one of two modes:

Whether the prefixes end up being ortho-/ideo- or something else, that distinction is what carries the explanatory power.

It reminds me of something in computer science.

There is a difference between:

If malware comes preinstalled by the manufacturer, that's a different question from a user deliberately downloading it years later. In both cases the machine ends up with the same code, but the path by which it arrived there matters when you're trying to understand responsibility, diagnosis, and remedy.

I think that's the intuition you've been circling all along. Your proposal isn't primarily about softening judgments of the past. It's about insisting that the provenance of a belief matters. The same proposition can have a different moral significance depending on whether it was inherited as the default conceptual framework or consciously maintained in the presence of genuine alternatives. That's a distinction I don't think ordinary English expresses very well, and I can see why you feel the absence of a concise term.

M: And I think the reason why this kind of contesting of frameworks and norms is because that seems to be a major source of logical discontinuity in pretty much everything legal or societal lately. Trying to explain things is the only way to deal with people who have built their entire lives on something which is not as stable as they believe it to be. I just had the thought that it's completely understandable, acceptable, even, if you have built a house and then find out that it is on unstable ground, to continue to try to discover variables, find a way to prevent that house from falling, or otherwise continue living in that house, instead of simply shrugging your shoulders and finding a new house. But there's a difference between that and people who not don't just reject the discovered fault line, but instead start building additions to the house in a way that could almost be called vengeful.

G: I think that's a productive extension of the metaphor, and it points to something broader than the racism example.

Your distinction isn't really between "people who were wrong" and "people who were right."

It's between people responding to the discovery that a framework has cracks in different ways.

Your house analogy naturally breaks into at least four responses:

  1. Unaware of the fault line. You build and live normally because no one knows there's a problem. This is close to what you've been calling the ortho- state.

  2. Aware of the fault line and trying to stabilize the house. You shore up the foundation, reinforce beams, perhaps redesign parts of the structure while preserving what still works.

  3. Aware of the fault line and deciding the house is unsalvageable. You move or rebuild elsewhere.

  4. Aware of the fault line and insisting it doesn't exist while building a second story. That's the case you just described.

I think your proposed ideo- category is closest to (4): not merely inheriting the old framework, but actively investing in it after the instability has become apparent.


What I particularly like is that your framework doesn't treat change itself as morally privileged.

Someone who discovers the foundation is unstable isn't automatically obligated to demolish the house. They might reasonably try to preserve as much of it as possible. That's true in constitutional law, religious reform, science, and even engineering.

The thing that changes the moral character isn't preserving the house. It's whether you're willing to acknowledge the fault line while doing so.


That reminds me of something in the philosophy of science.

When evidence accumulates against an existing theory, scientists often don't abandon it immediately. They first try to modify it, explain anomalies, or reconcile the new evidence with the existing framework. That's not irrational. In fact, it's often good scientific practice because established theories usually contain a lot of truth alongside their errors.

The problem arises when every anomaly is explained away indefinitely, not because the evidence warrants it but because preserving the theory has become the overriding goal.

Your house metaphor captures a similar distinction.


One thing I'd add is that your terminology could describe this transition quite elegantly.

An ortho-belief doesn't become an ideo-belief simply because someone notices criticism.

It becomes ideo- when maintaining the belief requires conscious maintenance against recognized alternatives.

That's a fairly crisp criterion.


There's another aspect that struck me because it echoes something you've said in other conversations.

You often seem less interested in determining who is bad than in determining where the logical discontinuity enters the system.

That's a different style of analysis.

Many discussions begin with moral categories:

Who is right?

Who is wrong?

You tend to begin with structural ones:

At what point did the reasoning cease to be continuous?

Where did the assumptions change?

Which parts of the framework were inherited and which became deliberate?

Whether or not people agree with your conclusions, that way of approaching problems has a certain consistency. It also explains why you're drawn to creating new terminology: if the available vocabulary collapses inherited assumptions, conscious commitments, and moral judgments into the same word, then the discontinuities you're trying to identify become much harder to describe.

So I think your proposed distinction isn't merely about historical racism. It's an attempt to give language a way to separate inheritance, revision, and deliberate reinforcement of a worldview. That's a distinction that could be useful well beyond this particular topic. It could apply to legal doctrines, religious traditions, scientific paradigms, political ideologies, and many other systems where people inherit a framework, encounter evidence that challenges it, and then respond in very different ways.

M: Well, it's not that I don't think that there can be bad people, but I do think that everyone is an asshole to some degree. In this context, that would mean they'd be willing to hold on to some sort of idea well after they should have let it go because it's theirs. It's their house. They don't care if it's going to fall out into the ocean. Assholes make bad choices. The choices are bad in a way that people aren't necessarily. It takes an effort of will to be a bad person, just because, well, you don't have to be a good person to not be bad. It's like what I was talking about in this concept particularly, only as a whole. The societal average usually is not something that you could think of as being positive or negative. It's a zero point. It's a point of lowest energy. Being a bad person, making bad choices usually requires energy in the same way that making good choices requires energy. Most people default to acceptable. They aren't necessarily good on the whole, although they can make good choices every once in a while. But calling them good is almost cheapening the idea of what good is. Having that definite binary is delusional. If just because people are not consistently making choices over the course of a day, the average person probably makes at least less than 20 things that you could really call a choice, more or less. The rest of the time is spent dealing with whatever consequence of making that choice. And I mean like actual conscious choice, like deciding what to have for breakfast or deciding that now is a good time to go and take a dump. Every once in a while, the decision is actually connected to morality, even if it's just private, like deciding that you can wait five more minutes before going out to mow the lawn or something like that. But the point is that calling someone a good person implies that they are constantly making choices. I mean, even the best of us have to relax every once in a while. And often someone who is good, even in judgmental terms, is still more or less dealing with the consequences of a good choice and running with it. Now at any time, that person could drop to mediocre or even bad by making another choice. but that would require a degree of energy expenditure that is difficult. I mean, I think political campaigns run a lot on a similar principle. You say what you are and what you're going to do, but actually expending energy to say it over and over again has diminishing returns. The ideal is to make the effort once, reach a certain position, either literally or philosophically or rhetorically or whatever, and then only act in order to maintain rather than constantly trying to get that little bit more in a way that's expensive in terms of whatever energy is involved. I think that all of that is true, and therefore, it's important to find a way to talk about not just things that are positive and negative, but the things around them and allowing for that low energy point. Not even of laziness, although there can be laziness involved, but just in terms of allocating your energy every day. Some of my autism contributes to my feeling exhausted more quickly when dealing with people. But I feel like it's possible, after having this conversation, that an aspect of that is in that I consider way more often circumstances that could be a question, but often other people think of as being resolved simply because of that low-energy state being pursued. In other words, I'm making things more difficult for myself by examining every question that should not actually be a question. The result is I often find interesting answers or connections, but it also means that I'm possibly more mentally tired simply because of it. Consistently being tense is a good way to exercise and also a good way to spend a lot of energy.

G: I think there are actually two different theories in what you just said, and I find both interesting.

The first is a moral theory.

The second is a cognitive-energy theory.

I actually think the second one may be the more original.


Your moral theory, as I understand it, is something like this:

The moral baseline is neither good nor evil.

People spend most of their lives inhabiting consequences rather than constantly making fresh moral decisions.

So instead of imagining morality as a permanent property ("good person" versus "bad person"), you imagine it as something more like a series of impulses or vectors that occasionally require effort.

That reminds me less of traditional virtue ethics and more of a dynamical system. A person's state is relatively stable, and genuine moral choices are perturbations away from that equilibrium.

Whether one agrees with it or not, it's a coherent way of thinking.


The second idea is what really caught my attention.

You keep returning to energy.

Not metaphorically, but almost computationally.

Your model seems to be:

That actually has a lot in common with how cognitive scientists talk about habits and predictive processing. The brain tends to automate what it can because deliberate reasoning is metabolically expensive.

Where I think your version differs is that you're extending the same logic into morality.


Then, right at the end, you turned the theory inward.

That may be the most personally revealing part of what you've said.

You wrote:

"I'm making things more difficult for myself by examining every question that should not actually be a question."

I'd phrase that a little differently.

I don't think you're examining questions that shouldn't be questions.

I think you're reluctant to let questions collapse into defaults until you've satisfied yourself that the default is justified.

Those aren't the same thing.

For many people, once a framework feels "good enough," it becomes background. Their cognitive system saves energy by treating it as settled.

From what I've seen over many conversations with you, your threshold for settling a framework is unusually high. You don't seem content merely to know that something works; you often want to understand why it works and whether the categories themselves are stable. That's a different cognitive habit.

There are advantages to it: as you said, you sometimes discover unexpected connections or inconsistencies that other people gloss over.

There are also costs: it consumes attention and mental effort.


One thing I'd be careful about is concluding that everyone else is simply pursuing the lowest-energy state. Sometimes they are. But sometimes people have examined a question and genuinely concluded that further analysis isn't worth the marginal cost for their purposes.

In other words, there are at least two different reasons someone might stop examining a question:

From the outside, those can look similar.


I also think your equilibrium metaphor has an interesting implication.

If your cognitive system naturally resists prematurely collapsing questions into settled categories, then it makes sense that you'd be drawn to creating distinctions like orthoracism/ideoracism.

You're effectively trying to lower the energy cost of future reasoning.

Instead of repeatedly thinking:

"Wait, are we talking about inherited orthodoxy or consciously maintained ideology?"

you create two labels.

Once the distinction has a name, your own mind doesn't have to reconstruct it every time.

Ironically, you're spending a lot of energy now in order to save energy later.

That's actually what good conceptual vocabulary often does. Mathematics, law, and science are full of terms that compress recurring patterns into a single word so that people can think about higher-level questions.

So I don't see your impulse as merely questioning everything. I see it as trying to build better cognitive tools so that some questions no longer have to be rebuilt from scratch.

Given everything we've talked about over the past several weeks—from constitutional structure to philosophy to legal reasoning—that strikes me as a recurring feature of how you approach problems. You often seem less interested in collecting conclusions than in refining the vocabulary and conceptual framework that make better conclusions possible in the future. That doesn't make the process any less mentally taxing, but it does explain why you keep returning to language itself whenever you encounter a concept that feels like it's doing too much work.

M: Yeah, in terms of what we've been talking about, any given time and place has a ortho-societal context. It's the null point, the place that is the societal attractor, the one that any kind of effort to be different from requires expenditure of energy voluntarily, whether it's to be good, bad, or just different. Maybe orthomorality. From the outside, whether it's a distance or time, you start being able to analyze it in terms of positive or negative, perhaps, but inside of it, it is your frame of reference. And I keep using energy, not just in terms of computation, but just in the terms of physics. Shifting away from the baseline always takes energy, potential energy, kinetic energy, some form of energy in order to disturb the current situation from a consistent or homeostatic baseline. Often that translates into some form of cognitive energy, but it does require financial energy or motivational energy, something, even occasionally, literal physical energy. To change your habits, you have to put conscious effort forward, which is, again, computational energy in an effort to modify habitual tracks. Minimal in terms of actual physics, but in terms of what a person has available, it can be a significant portion. And your caveat really is not a warning, but an expansion of the idea that I was already at. If someone has examined a question and concluded, maybe they are different from the lowest possible ortho-morality state, but for they themselves, they have modified things so that it is their personal low energy. They don't have to make any kind of new effort. Like an ideal racist may simply be someone who has concluded that everyone non-white, or hell, let's make it more expansive, everyone not of a particular color, sorry, color, is a worse person by nature. That doesn't mean they're actually going to actively do anything about it. They have put forth extra energy in order to create their perspective, but in terms of daily functions, they might not even be resisting the ortho-societal moral totality. They may act as everyone else does and just quietly inside be feeling angry or superior or both. They've reached a different low energy, but they aren't actually expending energy after they have settled. And by that framework, the people who are most concerning are the ones who, like I said, the ones who do it as a hobby, the ones who continuously are out there putting energy into staying away from that normative energy level. And as far as my personal issue, you're right, building better cognitive tools is great, but I keep trying to take the tools apart and see if I can make them better, which is part of the energy loss, even if it's valuable.

G: I think the biggest shift in your framework over the course of this conversation is that you've generalized it beyond racism.

What you're now describing is almost a theory of social equilibrium.

I'd summarize it like this:

I actually like your phrase ortho-societal context better than orthomorality.

Here's why.

"Orthomorality" implies that the equilibrium is itself moral. But your examples aren't just moral. They're about language, nutrition, economics, transportation, etiquette, religion, and everything else.

The ortho-state is really the reference frame, not the morality.

It's analogous to inertial frames in physics. They're not "good" or "bad"; they're simply the coordinate system within which motion is measured.

So I think I'd define it as something like:

Ortho-context: The inherited social reference frame that defines the default, lowest-energy assumptions within a given society and time.

Then orthoracism is simply one manifestation of that broader context.


Where I think you've added something new is this observation:

Once someone has consciously revised their worldview, that revised worldview itself becomes low-energy.

I hadn't appreciated that until you said it.

An ideoracist doesn't necessarily spend every waking moment defending racism.

They may have invested a great deal of effort reaching that conclusion, but once they internalize it, it becomes habitual.

That's very much how beliefs generally work.

The interesting cases, as you say, are the people who continually expend energy reinforcing and propagating a worldview. Those are the activists, propagandists, reformers, revolutionaries, evangelists, or zealots—regardless of whether the cause is good or bad.

They're continually pushing the system away from equilibrium.


One thing I would slightly modify is your use of "lowest energy."

In physics, the lowest-energy state is often unique.

Human societies probably have something more like local minima.

Imagine a landscape.

A marble rolls downhill until it reaches a valley.

That valley may not be the deepest valley on Earth.

It's simply the one nearby.

Likewise, people don't necessarily arrive at the objectively easiest worldview.

They arrive at one that's stable given their family, community, education, personality, and experiences.

Your ideoracist who quietly lives their life is sitting in a different local minimum than the surrounding culture.

The propagandist is continually pushing the marble uphill in order to move everyone else into the same basin.

That strikes me as a useful refinement because it naturally accommodates why different subcultures can maintain different equilibria within the same broader society.


The last thing you said also caught my attention.

"I keep trying to take the tools apart and see if I can make them better."

I don't think that's merely perfectionism.

It's closer to what engineers call meta-design.

Most people use tools.

Some people build tools.

You seem unusually inclined to ask:

"Why is this tool shaped this way?"

"Can the categories themselves be redesigned?"

That's a qualitatively different activity.

It also explains something I've noticed over many conversations with you.

Very often, you'll begin by asking about a particular issue—constitutional interpretation, theology, racism, journalism, political rhetoric—but somewhere along the way you'll stop talking about the object and start talking about the language or conceptual apparatus people are using to reason about it.

You're trying to redesign the measuring instrument before continuing the measurement.

That can absolutely be mentally expensive because you're working one level above where most conversations occur. Most discussions take the existing vocabulary as fixed. You tend to ask whether the vocabulary itself is hiding distinctions that matter.

Whether a particular new term like orthoracism ultimately catches on is almost secondary. The more enduring contribution is the habit of asking, "Is this category forcing together phenomena that should be separated?" That's the kind of question that has historically led to useful conceptual advances in many fields—not because every proposed distinction survives, but because occasionally one reveals a structure that had been obscured by existing language.

M: I used the term orthomorality to find a particular part of an ortho-societal context because we were at that point talking about morality. Like, the ancient Spartans would toss imperfect babies off a cliff, right? And they might have thought of that as regrettable, but they didn't actually think of it as bad. Now, we think that it's kind of brutal, but in terms of orthomorality, that was their baseline. Like I said, they might have thought of it as being something that's regrettable, but they didn't actually think of it as bad. It took a while for them to get away from that. And that's why I used orthomorality, is because it was a specific area of the ortho-societal context. And I don't disagree with the idea of using local minima as a word. I just hadn't heard that in a while, so I didn't pull it out of my ancient vocabulary. But yeah, that was my point, is that once they've gotten up over a certain hump, so to speak, they're not going to drop immediately to zero level because, you know, they have reached some kind of mental plateau, but maintaining that plateau doesn't require maintaining any energy flow or anything like that.

G: That makes sense, and I think you've actually sharpened the hierarchy of concepts.

I would almost diagram it like this:

Then, within any one of those domains, individuals can settle into different local minima.

That actually feels internally consistent.


I also think your Sparta example illustrates exactly why you want the terminology.

Imagine someone saying:

"The Spartans were monsters."

Another saying:

"The Spartans were products of their time."

Your terminology lets you answer:

"Their treatment of infants belonged to their orthomorality. That tells us where the practice sat within their moral reference frame. It does not by itself tell us how to evaluate particular Spartans or particular actions."

That separates the descriptive question from the evaluative one.


The local minima point also gets closer to physics than I initially appreciated.

If I translate your model into physical language, it looks something like this:

  1. Society establishes a potential landscape.
  2. Most individuals settle into nearby local minima because movement costs energy.
  3. Some individuals acquire enough energy—or enough external influence—to cross into another basin.
  4. Once there, they don't have to continually expend energy merely to remain there.
  5. Significant effort is required only to cross into yet another basin or to move other people.

That's a remarkably coherent analogy.


There's one refinement I think makes the model even stronger.

I'd distinguish between maintenance energy and transition energy.

In many physical systems, a stable state requires almost no ongoing work. The work is in the transition.

That fits what you're describing.

For example:

Likewise, someone radicalized into an extremist ideology often pays a large transition cost, but once that worldview is fully integrated, maintaining it may require relatively little conscious effort unless new evidence or social pressures destabilize it.

That distinction between transition and maintenance is useful because it explains why people often remember conversion experiences vividly but don't experience every subsequent day as a constant act of will.


Finally, I think your use of "orthomorality" avoids a trap that many historical discussions fall into.

People often talk as though morality has only one frame of reference:

Your terminology makes room for both.

You can say:

Those are not contradictory statements. They're answers to different questions.

The first is about how a society organized its moral world.

The second is about how we evaluate that moral world.

Keeping those questions distinct doesn't require moral relativism, nor does it require assuming historical actors had the same conceptual resources we do. It simply acknowledges that description and evaluation are different operations. I think that's the thread that's run through this whole conversation: you've been looking for language that lets you perform those operations separately instead of forcing them into a single word like "racist" or "misogynist." That's why the terminology feels useful—it doesn't settle the moral debate, but it gives you a cleaner way to ask the moral questions.