M: I need you to go around and look online and try and find me what the psychology and psychiatric profession has said about Donald since I think it was, yeah, I think that in like 2024, they were basically doing an unprecedented, they were making a relatively unprecedented effort, just pointing out that, hey, Donald is kind of a broken human being who shouldn't be in charge of anything. Now, that's a paraphrase, so don't try and correct me on it, but you should be able to find something about that. What I'm wondering is if anything has come out since then within the profession that has built upon their position in 2024, or if it's just been kind of a thing where they said, we did what we could do, and they've just put it down until something arises that triggers them again.
G: What happened in 2024 was less “the profession officially declared Trump mentally unfit” and more a renewed fracture inside psychiatry and psychology over whether the normal ethical restraint rules still applied to him.
The key background issue is the “Goldwater Rule,” created after psychiatrists publicly speculated about Barry Goldwater in the 1960s. The rule says psychiatrists should not professionally diagnose a public figure without direct examination and consent. citeturn0news76turn0search1
What changed with entity["politician","Donald Trump","45th and 47th President of the United States"] is that a faction of mental-health professionals argued that his behavior was so publicly observable and potentially dangerous that a competing ethical principle — a “duty to warn” — overrode the usual restraint. That argument has been going on since 2017, especially around the book entity["book","The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump","2017 anthology"]. citeturn0search15turn0search18turn0news77
But in late 2024, the rhetoric escalated again in a more organized way. One of the biggest examples was an open letter signed by more than 200 mental-health professionals claiming Trump showed signs of “malignant narcissism,” antisocial traits, paranoia, and possible cognitive decline. citeturn0search6turn0search9turn0search21
The important nuance:
As for your actual question — whether anything new has emerged since 2024 — the answer is basically:
Yes, but it’s been more of an intensification and normalization than some giant new declaration.
The pattern since then appears to be:
For example:
But institutionally? No, there does not appear to have been a dramatic official escalation by the core professional bodies themselves.
If anything, the landscape now looks like:
So your “they did what we could do and then mostly stopped unless triggered again” description is actually fairly close for the institutional bodies.
The people who kept going are mostly the same long-running “Duty to Warn” camp — just louder, more alarmed, and increasingly focused on cognition and dangerousness rather than only narcissism. citeturn0search14turn0search3turn0search10turn0search16
M: Okay, largely, I was just wondering if there had been any major spikes like that thing in the middle of 2024. I do have a follow-up question. Is there any indication of serious disagreement about the diagnosis that has been put out there? Like a straight-up, complete 100% disagreement with a large percentage? Or is the break more just a question of whether or not it should be talked about?
G: From what I can find, the major divide is overwhelmingly about ethics, methodology, and public responsibility — not about there being a giant organized bloc of psychiatrists saying “No, he appears completely psychologically normal.”
That distinction matters.
There are professionals who strongly object to the claims being made about Donald, but most of the serious objections fall into categories like:
Rather than:
In other words, the disagreement is usually:
“You should not say this in this way with this level of certainty.”
not:
“There is obviously nothing psychologically abnormal here.”
That’s a very different kind of dispute. citeturn0search0turn0search5turn0search7
There is disagreement about specific labels, though.
For example:
That last point is actually pretty important: some critics of the “Trump diagnosis” discourse argue that calling him mentally ill can unintentionally soften accountability, as though the conduct were primarily pathological rather than deliberate. That argument shows up fairly often in the anti-Goldwater side. citeturn0search5turn0search14
At the same time, there does not seem to be a large-scale professional counter-movement asserting:
“The psychiatric concerns are completely fabricated.”
You can find individuals saying that, but not a dominant institutional wave.
Instead, the mainstream institutional stance is closer to:
“We are not going to publicly diagnose him, and professionals should be extremely careful.”
The American Psychiatric Association has consistently defended that position. citeturn0search7turn0search12
What complicates things is that some groups adjacent to psychiatry partially broke ranks:
So the field fractured, but not into two clean camps of:
It fractured more into:
And beneath that, there’s a quieter secondary disagreement:
That ambiguity is part of why the debate never really resolved cleanly.
M: Yeah, that's what I was looking for. I didn't think that there was because I have a feeling Donald would have uplifted, like, a statistic if even 5% of them were saying he was completely fine. And I haven't heard anything like that. I'm not sure where I fall in terms of how I feel about this. On one hand, I understand the professional integrity, etc., etc. On the other hand, it seems like the people who are maintaining the professional distance and the Goldwater rule and all of that are basically arguing that we can't tell at this distance whether that's actually a fire or not, but even though we're sitting on top of all of this gunpowder, we really should just leave that to the professionals to get close and actually figure out whether it's a fire. Doubly so when you think about how many times this schmuck has had to take a cognitive test and paraded it around as though he just aced the SATs.
G: That tension is basically the core of the whole dispute.
The “Duty to Warn” side sees the situation almost exactly the way you described it:
To them, the Goldwater Rule starts looking less like ethics and more like procedural paralysis during an emergency.
The traditionalist side fears a different disaster: if psychiatrists normalize diagnosing political figures remotely, then psychiatry itself becomes another partisan weapon. And historically, that fear is not imaginary. Psychiatry has absolutely been abused politically in various countries to delegitimize opponents.
So one side fears:
“Silence in the face of danger.”
The other fears:
“Destroying the boundary between medicine and politics.”
And the ugly reality is that both fears are legitimate.
What makes Trump uniquely combustible in this argument is that he behaves in a way that constantly tempts people to cross the line because so much of the relevant material is public, repetitive, and unusually extreme. He is not a private citizen whose internal life is mostly hidden. He performs continuously and compulsively in public.
That creates a weird gray zone where:
And yes, the cognitive-test issue became part of that feedback loop. Because the tests he repeatedly referenced were generally brief screening instruments intended to detect major impairment, not demonstrations of exceptional cognition. So when he publicly treated passing them as extraordinary achievements, critics interpreted that in very different ways:
The profession largely avoided turning that into an official clinical conclusion, but public commentators absolutely seized on it.
One other thing worth noting: there’s also a philosophical split underneath all this about whether highly destructive behavior must imply mental pathology at all.
Some people instinctively think:
“No psychologically healthy person would behave this way.”
Others strongly resist that framing because they think history is full of perfectly reality-oriented people doing manipulative, cruel, narcissistic, or authoritarian things intentionally and effectively. In that framework, over-medicalizing the behavior can accidentally blur moral agency.
That’s part of why even anti-Trump professionals often disagree sharply on whether the best framework is:
So the argument never cleanly settles because it’s simultaneously:
M: I think the part that I'm either not seeing or not decoding from how you're describing other people react is the active avoidance that the people trying to hold on to the Goldwater rule are showing. Like, if this is a problem, they are the fucking professionals. I would give them more credit if instead of what it looks like they're saying, they at least tacked on something like, you can't judge someone from a distance. That being said, there's definitely a sign that someone should get closer in there, and that avoidance of this is not a negligible sign or something like that.
G: I think what you’re reacting to is that the institutional language often sounds artificially bloodless compared to the stakes people perceive.
And to be fair, some critics inside psychiatry have made essentially your exact complaint: that parts of the profession sounded more concerned with protecting procedural purity than with acknowledging obvious warning signs.
But from the Goldwater-rule side, the avoidance is usually not intended as:
“There is nothing concerning here.”
It’s more:
“The moment we publicly imply diagnostic concern without examination, we have already crossed the line we are trying to preserve.”
That distinction matters enormously to them.
Because in their framework, even saying:
“This strongly suggests a need for clinical evaluation”
can itself function socially as a de facto diagnosis when directed at a political figure.
And once that norm breaks, they fear it becomes impossible to contain. Every future election becomes:
So some of the restraint that looks evasive is actually defensive institutional behavior: they are trying to avoid creating precedent.
The problem is that this caution collides badly with ordinary human pattern recognition.
Most people do not experience Trump as a subtle or ambiguous public figure. They see:
So when professionals refuse to even gesture toward concern, many observers interpret the silence as absurdly detached.
That’s why the middle ground you’re describing became attractive to some clinicians: something like:
“We cannot ethically diagnose from afar, but the observable behavior raises legitimate concerns worthy of scrutiny.”
A number of professionals have tried to occupy that space. The problem is that institutional organizations tend to avoid even that formulation because they worry the public will hear only:
“Experts think he’s mentally unfit.”
And honestly, they’re probably correct about that communication dynamic.
There’s also another uncomfortable layer: mental-health professions are acutely aware that they do not possess a clean, objective “danger detector” for political leadership.
A person can:
Historically, societies get into very dangerous territory when “bad leader” and “mentally ill leader” become interchangeable concepts.
So the institutional caution partly comes from recognizing the limits of psychiatry itself — not just protecting Trump specifically.
That said, your frustration is not unusual. A lot of people — including some clinicians — felt that the profession’s public posture sometimes drifted from “ethical restraint” into something that sounded almost clinically antiseptic in the face of behavior they regarded as glaringly alarming.
M: Is the Goldwater Rule an actual rule, or is that just a thing like the Supreme Court doctrine, where everyone follows it as though it were a rule, but it doesn't actually have any kind of official endorsement?
G: The Goldwater Rule is a real, official ethical rule — but its force depends on the organization involved.
Most importantly, it is formally part of the ethics code of the entity["organization","American Psychiatric Association","APA psychiatry organization"] (the psychiatrists’ APA, not the psychologists’ APA). Specifically, it’s Section 7.3 of their Principles of Medical Ethics. citeturn0search0
In plain English, it says psychiatrists should not offer a professional opinion about a public figure’s mental condition unless they have:
So it’s not just a vague tradition or cultural norm. Within that organization, it is an actual codified ethics standard.
However:
And it gets murkier because not all mental-health professions are governed identically.
For example:
That distinction caused confusion publicly because people hear “APA” and assume there’s only one:
Different organizations, different rules.
Also, the Goldwater Rule itself emerged from a very specific historical embarrassment: in 1964, a magazine surveyed psychiatrists about presidential candidate entity["politician","Barry Goldwater","1964 U.S. presidential candidate"] and published hostile psychiatric speculation about him. Goldwater sued and won. Afterward, the psychiatric profession decided this kind of public remote-diagnosis behavior damaged both ethics and credibility. citeturn0search2
So unlike something that merely “everyone acts like is a rule,” this one genuinely is institutionalized.
But the important subtlety is: the argument today is less about whether the rule exists, and more about:
M: On a completely different topic, in my younger brain there developed this idea that there were a lot of crosses involved in World War I and II between both Germany and England in terms of military symbology. Like, I know that there's at least one of them that is like seen as symptomatic of being a Nazi, but am I remembering correctly or did I just get misguided when I was young and not really look into it? And I'm sitting exactly on the wrong side of the factual fence on this one. I honestly don't know, and I'm not sure where I would start because looking into that kind of stuff has all kinds of political issues associated with it, so please go online and help me figure this out.
G: Your younger brain was actually picking up on something real, just without the historical sorting needed to separate the layers.
The short version is:
The biggest symbol you’re probably thinking of is the entity["historical_event","Iron Cross","German military decoration"]. citeturn0search1turn0search8
It predates Hitler by more than a century:
What Hitler did was modify the WWII version by adding a swastika into the center. citeturn0search1turn0search6
That’s why people get confused: the shape itself is older German military symbolism, but the WWII Nazi version fused it with Nazi iconography.
And yes, modern Germany still uses a stylized version of the Iron Cross/Balkenkreuz family as military insignia on vehicles and aircraft. citeturn0search2turn0search11turn0search4
The other major symbol is the entity["historical_event","Balkenkreuz","German military emblem"] (“bar cross”). citeturn0search2
That was:
So your memory that:
“Germany used a lot of crosses in both wars” is absolutely correct.
Where people get tripped up is assuming:
“cross symbol used by Germany in WWII” = “specifically Nazi-created symbol.”
That’s often false.
A lot of Nazi imagery was actually inherited from:
The Nazis were extremely opportunistic symbol thieves. They liked appropriating older symbols because it let them present themselves as heirs to a deeper German past.
Britain complicates this further because British military and national symbolism also uses crosses everywhere:
So to a kid looking at WWII imagery, there really does appear to be “a bunch of crosses everywhere.”
The important distinction is:
That’s why an isolated Iron Cross can be context-dependent today. Even groups like the entity["organization","Anti-Defamation League","ADL"] note that the plain Iron Cross by itself is not automatically a hate symbol because it has multiple historical uses. citeturn0search1turn0search3
So you were not “on the wrong side of the factual fence.” You were noticing a genuine historical overlap, just without the later nuance separating:
M: Can you find me, please, a few pictures of each type of military cross from the World War II era, by which I mean the British ones and then the Nazi ones, just so I can try and get a visual grasp on the differentiation or, you know, justify in my mind that there needs to be more context, because I usually work better with a visual mnemonic to hold on to. Look for, let's try and get it specific, get me an example of the three most used cross patterns that would appear on military vehicles for the German side and then the three most used on the British side.
G: Here are the major visual patterns you were probably subconsciously blending together.
This is the older Prussian/German form that long predates the Nazis.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["WWII German Iron Cross medal","Prussian Iron Cross symbol WWII","Wehrmacht Iron Cross emblem"],"num_per_query":1}
Key visual traits:
This is the one that survives in modified form in modern German military symbolism.
This is probably the most iconic German vehicle/aircraft marking from WWII.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"16:9","query":["WWII German tank Balkenkreuz","Luftwaffe Balkenkreuz aircraft","Wehrmacht Balkenkreuz armored vehicle"],"num_per_query":1}
Key visual traits:
This evolved from late WWI markings and was heavily used by Nazi Germany, but the shape itself was not uniquely Nazi-created.
You’ll sometimes see variants between the ornate Iron Cross and the stripped-down Balkenkreuz.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["German cross pattee military insignia WWI WWII","Imperial German military cross symbol","early Wehrmacht cross insignia"],"num_per_query":1}
These are where the lineage becomes visually obvious:
Britain actually used fewer “vehicle cross” symbols in the German sense. A lot of British identification relied on:
But crosses still absolutely appeared in military heraldry and medals.
This isn’t a cross, but it’s one of the reasons British imagery visually separated itself from Germany so strongly.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"16:9","query":["RAF WWII aircraft markings","British WWII tank markings","British military vehicle insignia WWII"],"num_per_query":1}
You can immediately see:
This visual divergence is part of why German cross imagery stands out so much in memory.
These appear more in flags, shields, unit insignia, and ceremonial imagery.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["British military heraldic cross WWII","St George cross British military","British regiment cross insignia WWII"],"num_per_query":1}
Key traits:
Britain used cross forms heavily in medals and honors.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["Victoria Cross medal WWII","British military cross medals WWII","Military Cross United Kingdom WWII"],"num_per_query":1}
These tend to look:
Your younger impression makes a lot of sense visually because:
The visual mnemonic I’d give you is:
M: Not as much British stuff as I had hoped for, and you kind of went off there not doing crosses. I was looking for examples of the crosses, but I do notice that at least in one of those examples, it was essentially like within 90% of the same silhouette as the Iron Cross, but on what you're saying is a British medal.
G: Yeah, you caught a real overlap there, and that’s actually the interesting historical part.
The British medal you noticed was probably the entity["other","Military Cross","British military decoration"] or something closely related. Those do share the same broad “cross pattée” silhouette family as the entity["other","Iron Cross","German military decoration"] because both descend from older European heraldic and Christian military designs.
Here’s the comparison more directly focused on the cross shapes themselves.
Notice the widening arms and pinched center.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["Iron Cross medal isolated white background","WWII Iron Cross outline","German cross pattee insignia"],"num_per_query":2}
This shape lineage goes:
This is the one heavily painted on tanks and aircraft.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["Balkenkreuz isolated symbol","WWII Balkenkreuz side of tank","Luftwaffe Balkenkreuz closeup"],"num_per_query":2}
Notice how it:
That harsh geometry is part of why people mentally associate it with Nazism even though the symbol predates the Nazis.
These are the British shapes closest to the Iron Cross silhouette family.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["British Military Cross medal","Victoria Cross isolated","British cross pattée medal WWII"],"num_per_query":2}
You can immediately see the overlap:
The difference is mostly stylistic context:
Instead of the stripped-down “machine cross” feeling Germany evolved toward.
These are simpler and more directly Christian-English.
image_group{"layout":"carousel","aspect_ratio":"1:1","query":["St George cross military heraldry","British regiment heraldic cross","English heraldic cross military"],"num_per_query":2}
These tend to:
So the thing your brain was noticing was real: there genuinely is a shared European “military cross” visual ancestry.
The divergence happens later:
And because the Nazis reused older German military imagery rather than replacing it wholesale, the visual family resemblance remained intact.