2026-02-23 12:48:34 EST

M: In the 2019 movie Joker, whatever else someone might think about the movie and the various other Batman movies, the one thing that satisfied me was that it gave a good goddamn reason for the Wayne family to be going down an alley after a movie. Every other one assumes that a millionaire or billionaire would take his family down a side alley for a walk in the city after a movie. A millionaire or billionaire who is well aware of the city's problems because evidently he was involved in fighting most of them. Every other version of Batman seems to kind of handwave this, except for the Joker movie. That was just an introductory rant, because what I need you to do is go online and figure out for me something related to it. I know that in quite a few versions of the Batman story, the place where his parents die is called Crime Alley. What I need you to figure out is if every time it's only called Crime Alley after the death of Thomas and Martha Wayne, or if there are anywhere Crime Alley is what it's called even before the future Batman and his parents take a walk down it.

G: Here’s what the lore says about Crime Alley and whether it was already called that before the Waynes were killed*:

🦇 1. Origin of the place in comics

In most of the canonical Batman comics, the location where Bruce Wayne’s parents are murdered was originally just a normal street in Gotham — most commonly named Park Row. It was once a respectable part of town that declined over time as the city’s crime problem grew. citeturn0search0turn0search10

🧟‍♂️ **2. When did the name “Crime Alley” come about?**

The nickname Crime Alley becomes widely used only after the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne. That tragic event was so defining for Gotham’s history — and for Bruce personally — that the area’s reputation worsened and the nickname stuck. citeturn0search0turn0search10turn0search15

In the classic 1976 comic story “There Is No Hope in Crime Alley” (Detective Comics #457), we’re told that Park Row fell into decay and the murder helped cement its infamy — with “Crime Alley” becoming a common way people referred to the decayed district. citeturn0search1
Batman’s origin depictions often have him revisit that site annually as a symbolic return to where his life changed. citeturn0search10

🧵 3. Are there alternate takes in comics?

Yes — some modern stories explore deeper histories. For example, Gotham City: Year One #4 introduced a backstory where the area’s notoriety dates to events before the Waynes’ death, tying its reputation to other incidents in Gotham’s criminal past. But this is a newer retcon and still ties the nickname’s wide usage to the overall decay of the neighborhood even after the Waynes died. citeturn0search24

📺 4. Other media

In various animated and game versions (like Batman: The Animated Series and the Arkham games), the name Crime Alley is already in use at the time of the Waynes’ death — but it’s generally understood as shorthand for Park Row’s reputation, not a formal, historic name. citeturn0search11

✅ Bottom line

In classic comics continuity, the street was originally Park Row and only truly became known as “Crime Alley” after the Wayne murders because of the way the crime worsened the area’s reputation. citeturn0search0turn0search10
In some modern retellings or expanded lore there are hints of the area’s crime problems predating the Waynes’ death — but the specific label “Crime Alley” still tends to stick because of (or reinforced strongly by) that murder. citeturn0search24

So your instinct from the 2019 Joker — that most versions don’t explain why the Waynes were in a notorious alley — is actually reflected in the comics too: the name Crime Alley mostly comes after the tragedy, not before it. citeturn0search15

2026-02-23 12:53:08 EST

M: Oh, I didn't think that it was actually the official name. I always knew it was what the locals called it. It just means that an argument that I've had before wasn't exactly right and it wasn't exactly wrong depending on which timeline you're looking at. Because that means in some timelines, this guy who understood that the dark side of Gotham was coming out literally took his family for no reason that is really easily discernible through a place that was literally called Crime Alley. Not because he had to get to his car because they had a driver, but just to go for a walk after a movie really late at night. He literally, and by he I mean Thomas Wayne, he literally sometimes took his family for no good reason into a place called Crime Alley. That's the part that drives me up the wall, and that's the reason why 2019 Joker deserves credit for that at least. Because in no fucking world, whether it's before or after, should a place that eventually gets called Crime Alley be the place that a person takes their family, not as a shortcut, but just as part of a walk. No one should be taking their family through an alley for a walk in any city, just on principle. It's an alley.

G: You’re not wrong — and you’re also not fully right — and that’s exactly the irritating part.

Your revised framing actually lands on the cleanest synthesis:

In most continuities, it’s not officially called Crime Alley at the time.
In some continuities and adaptations, it effectively is already treated as such.
And in all continuities, it’s still an alley.

That last point is doing almost all the work.

The alley problem (which almost no version earns)

An alley is not a promenade.
An alley is not a romantic post-theater stroll.
An alley is, definitionally, a service corridor.

So even in timelines where it’s still called Park Row, the logic still fails:

Thomas Wayne is rich.
He has a driver.
He knows Gotham is decaying.
He is, in many versions, actively involved in addressing crime.
And yet he chooses: “Yes, let’s wander into a narrow, poorly lit urban dead zone with my wife and child.”

That’s not tragic irony. That’s negligent writing shorthand.

Why entity["movie","Joker","2019 Todd Phillips film"] actually earns its keep here

What Joker does — and why you’re right to give it credit — is restore causal dignity to the moment:

The Waynes are fleeing chaos.
Streets are unsafe everywhere, not just “the bad part.”
The alley is not a choice — it’s a compression point.
The violence emerges from systemic collapse, not coincidence.

In other words:
They don’t enter danger.
Danger closes around them.

That single fix retroactively exposes how lazy most other versions are.

The timeline-dependent contradiction you clocked

You’re also right that arguments about this often collapse because people unknowingly switch timelines mid-sentence:

Pre-murder nickname? Then Thomas Wayne looks outright reckless.
Post-murder nickname? Then the alley still shouldn’t have been chosen unless forced.
No driver, no pressure, no threat? Then the scene is narratively indefensible.

So your earlier argument wasn’t wrong — it was underspecified.
And your irritation isn’t pedantic — it’s structural.

Bottom line

Even if it wasn’t called Crime Alley yet:

No one takes their family for a walk through an alley. Ever.

That’s not hindsight.
That’s urban literacy.

And yes — Joker (2019) is one of the very few versions that actually understands that.