M: Okay, to clarify, not enough to really warrant a version 0.4 yet. Just minor edits. Where is... I think necessarily not in the darkest timeline. On one of the other two timelines. Far enough after... ...the events in games... ...that have been given... ...but far enough before Breath of the Wild... ...that the ancient... ...what were they called? The... ...imprisonment wars... ...can be attributed as being the long-forgotten... ...occurrence of this game. I guess it would have to be on the sequence that wasn't involving the Wind Waker stuff. Simply because we want everything to still be Hyrule, and... ...the Wind Waker wiped that shit out, didn't it? Preferably put in a place where the homeostasis of Hyrule ascends, Ganon shows up, breaks everything, Link shows up to fix it, and then things start going back up, for that to be almost a usable cycle. Like, it doesn't always have to be Ganon that's causing directly the thing. It can be one of those situations where perhaps he has some sort of influence, remotely or whatever, from some sort of magical stasis, but basically a situation where, you know, this is almost expected, kind of like the occasional comet or something, and people aren't happy with it, but they've almost gotten used to the idea. Here's a way to describe the adversary, which I think is what we'll keep calling him unless I really need to be specific about why something happens. I think that we could describe his personality as being something like that of Butcher from the comic book version of The Boys. The TV version isn't a bad representation, but as an ongoing series, his character arc hasn't finished, so it's not as easy to use as definitive. But that's a good descriptor both in terms of attitude and capacity. He doesn't revel in the violence, but he doesn't see why it shouldn't be an option, and certainly doesn't understand why that shouldn't be the first option at this point. In the other parts of his backstory that you've got so far, we're going to say he doesn't subvert any Ganons. I'm not sure if the reasoning is going to be strict personality friction in that simply by virtue of who they are, there's never been a situation in which subversion was even possible just because of who they were. Or if it's got something to do with another aspect of the Triforce where even though the adversary may still be connected to the Triforce of Courage, the method by which he curb stomps the various Ganons creates a situation in which the Triforce of Power instantly flees so he has no use for them. But whatever the reason, we're going to stick with just Link. If there ever is a Ganon-like general, he needs to be vague, distant for a long portion of the game, and in the end turn out to be some variation of a subject of Ganon's. But not the man himself, who is being used as a distraction or diversion from what could actually be going on. And that should be something used to confuse the user as well. We both know that this is not actual Ganon, but any time that we've given enough information that this could possibly be a version of Link, we throw that in there in a way that makes them say, Yeah, but how could that be Ganon is involved as well? The changing map should be originally based on, as close as you can get to, you know, previous constructions of Hyrule. So the biomes you're talking about should already exist, but perhaps in different forms. Like what once was a ancient and respected cathedral, not even gets replaced with a broken version of itself, but finds itself on a hill next to the destroyed version. In fact, for the adventure part, that could be an aspect of making it easier on people when it's first released, and then later on it's just kind of a nifty thing going on. They have almost exactly the same floor plan, so in order to find to completely find the secrets of the broken version, you can explore the first, the existing and whole, if ancient, version of it before going in, and then realize that something is missing, or that there's a collapsed wall that should be a door, or an intact wall that should be a door, that kind of thing. Just to express that you've got the right idea in terms of anchoring though, yes. That's the inability to prevent the incursions also ties into the management thing once we've got that going. The incursions can be, like you said before, a terrified version, a post-Ganon or even a during-Ganon town completely in a siege mentality already and now surrounded by... Yo, long time no see, man. And you're right, this ties into the randomness idea. This is the kind of thing that should not occur in a way that is going to destroy the flow of the game, but should not be predictable in each playthrough. And then once you have control, then the game can start introducing... Hell, we can even make it so that at that point you can start introducing the more powerful acceptance or rejections. Like, things that would never show up randomly, or would only show up very rarely, now become common because they would kick your ass if they just randomly dropped behind your lines. But if you can be prepared to handle that, the player might be able to take advantage of it and make better progress. You seem to be getting a good grasp of the kind of Ganon as a player character that I'm thinking of. Like I said, the Hyrule Warriors version is the one that I'm basing my thoughts on. With respect for the Ocarina of Time one, that was kind of scrawny. I mean, not really scrawny, but definitely not that. We want the guy who is more robust, able to go out there and take it to everyone, who carries his magic with him as a sword and laughs about it. This could be an entertaining challenge, simply because Ganondorf has been depicted so often as a source of pure evil that the idea of him relaxing in some form is almost laughable. We can't have him constantly either scheming for afterwards or being angry at his situation. He needs to at least occasionally take advantage of the fact that he doesn't have to fight against everyone who isn't under his thrall, and even revel in being able to get more out of the forces of good than their generals ever seem to be able to. Hi friend, if I could see your ID please. I have to walk away for a while. Please don't respond to this until I get back and have gone through the entirety of this version 0.3. Okay?

M: Okay, continuing on, let's see, I'm looking at Zelda and your comments on her, at least this next part in the sequence, and yeah, the one thing that we need to ensure is that she is somehow established as not entirely useless on a battlefield. Like, maybe not Sheik level, but make sure that she is, you know, ranged weapon bow capable, if not the best choice most of the time. Or any of the time, really, just... She is the weakest, like, physically out of the three, but that's because that's not her task. She's capable, just not, again, the ideal choice. Because, like I was saying, if we get to the point of, you know, when she is the only one left, she has to be able to hold her own as you try and do the last ditch attempt to save everyone. I was thinking about the overarching idea and why this is useful. It's because of how things are described. All of the timelines, and I'm sorry, when I say this, I'm talking about the entire game and the story behind it. The story behind it. So, the reason it's important is because of the way that things started forking. It was not just the time travel, it was the idea that... And this is especially novel in a video game, I think. The idea that the game world could continue on and that the hero could be reborn hero could be reborn in a world where previously he had died. Not just died, but lost. And when I started thinking about it, it was the definition of this particular game's story precludes any branching because of it. The battle is literally either the end of everything or the restart of the of the of the pattern. So, it's not like the end of this. After everything is said and done, it's not like there's going to, instead of the three timeline situation, there will now be two because you lost and everything went on. No, that's not a possibility. Either everything ends or a single world continues. Let's see. A lot of these are specific ideas that I hope you can keep in mind as we explore different parts of the mechanics and details. It looks like you've got a lot of them more or less encapsulated. Any kind of variation is minimal enough or requires more thought that to a degree that that trying to modify it right now would be a diminishing return. So, well done there. Please try and keep each of these little bits in mind as we go along to see if they can be tied in to future conversations. Because as they are, they are very interesting beads, but we really haven't started making more than a little bit of the necklace so far that they will be threaded onto. I'm looking at the comms and thinking of how the Triforce might be described as working. I think that if there is any kind of echo channel, as you're calling it, that it will have to be involuntary and coming from the captive links, not the ones that joined the adversary. I say this because the Triforce of Courage, as I understand it right now, and if I'm completely wrong, please correct me, but it's almost a intelligent idea. And one could say that it would remain with Link as the adversary even as he was trying to completely destroy everything, for the same reason that the Triforce of Power stayed with Ganon. The Triforce judgment comes from the soul of the possessor, not because of any subjective judgment of the good or evil of that soul. And so, if we use that logic, you could say that each of the links that followed the adversary would no longer be worthy of the Triforce of Courage. They have succumbed. They are following and because of that they would be abandoned. To add a little bit more clarity to the idea of bound randomness, the telegraphing is not a compensation. We simply need to make it so that the user does not feel persecuted by the random number generator. Unless they are on, like, the easiest setting, they should be skilled enough to be prepared to handle a random incursion with no problem. Particularly once they realize that it can happen. There might need to be some form of tutorial or lead-in situation so that even the experienced players know that they have reached the threshold where it can start. It doesn't necessarily have to be tutorial-level easy, but it shouldn't be intrinsically impossible. You shouldn't be able to lose the first incursion, and it shouldn't be avoidable. It's the starter pistol, though. Once you reach that point, the player should realize they have to be prepared for this kind of thing. And it's our duty as the creators to at least attempt to convey this in a way that's clear, because it is supposed to be a significant enough mechanic. No, we don't have to project things past that first encounter, but we do have to make sure, okay, one, incursion, they should always be able to handle. Two, within a short span of time, should be an achievable challenge. But from the user's perspective, if you start getting three in a row, even if you can demonstrate that it is perfectly random, the user will start to feel persecuted, which is not exactly what a video game should engender in its users. So the projection is not a concern. The concern is to make sure that no situation arises where someone quits simply because the dice rolled badly too many times. To expand on the art direction rule, it's not necessary to exactly replicate in any form the pixel art or even the early 3D versions. The important thing is that it should be tied in closely enough that the informed player can recognize it. And more importantly, that it is a second form. Okay, I started badly. Not every, but most enemy troops will be a variation of the friendly troops that come from Ganon Association, which means that practicality in game design demands that unless there is a really good reason for there to be similarity or even an identical look, then it is incumbent on the creators to make sure that the user doesn't get fucked over because they can't tell the difference between friends and foes. I appreciate you attempting to create the map out of the big bones, but I'm hoping we can expand sufficiently on the storyline that that is, in retrospect, charmingly obsolete. I feel like what you have there is not a Chapter 1, 2, and 3, but as we progress, is more like Chapter 5, Chapter 9, and Chapter 14. Yeah, this is definitely a multi-ending type game, just from the complexity alone. I can't see a situation where you could honestly say that there was a definitive ending that could work with every victory condition. So yeah, the endings will be modular. Although, at least a majority, if not all of them, will be at least partially determined. Near to or directly at the end. That is, unless all three pillars of the user-player characters fail, then there should be no ending condition, at least as far as I'm visualizing things, that can occur before the final chapter is written. What I mean is that, okay, if you get to the point right before the end that I'm talking about, and only Link and Zelda have survived, then of course it's going to be a different ending. But there should be no ending that can occur before that point. So the endings can branch, but the gameplay all should be leading towards the singularity from which the endings branch, no matter what route the user ends up taking to get there. I think that's everything. So you can act like you just got the last message and this one, and please give me whatever feedback you feel is appropriate.

M: On the scope, he never subverts cannons, or, sorry, gannons. He never subverts them both because he can't and there's no reason to, and both of those reasons are kind of two sides of the same coin. There's no reason to because the only thing he could get from them is the Triforce of Power, and victory kind of strips that from every gannon, and then the reason why the Triforce of Power is with any of the gannons in the first place is because they are the kind of people who will continue to fight against the hero, even the evil hero, if just because they can't stand to be below anyone in the rank. So, it's kind of like the reason there are no subverted gannons is because of two reasons, which really are just aspects of the same reason. They won't submit because they can't submit, and because Link is a bit off his, I won't say off his rocker, but because Link has gone so dark, there is no reason for him even to try to reason with them, particularly because he does know Ganon as a character and personality. So, it's not like he's the optimistic form of Link who could believe that there might be something to salvage. This is someone who recognizes a lost cause and adapts to it. The only thing I would say about the illusion hook is that the gannon should lead them on, or rather, the fake gannon should be used to lead things on as long as possible, not just mid-story. I'm aware that you might have meant that as kind of a vague descriptor and not literally halfway through the game, but I want to make it explicit that the longer it can be kept as a secret, the better I think it would feel. That one needs to be noted as the kind of thing it would be difficult to gauge whether or not the average user would be guessing the truth, because we already know the truth. Designing as though we are ignorant will be questionable at best. A bit of testing will probably be necessary about this in particular, whether it's through questioning uninformed testers or some other means. To expand on Zelda's combat competence, I'm not contradicting anything I said before, but I am going to add that we need to make sure which route to take in terms of how capable she is. I can't think of any examples off the top, but we need to be aware as best we can be of any exploits that are present and make sure that they are there with our awareness and not in a way that... How is it? What's the term for it? I can't think of what it is, so that a fanatic gamer can't use what we think of as one of her weakest attacks, pair it off with some glitchy combo and suddenly create an ultimate tank out of what is intended to be our weakest character. Or at least not so that they can do it without our knowing that's happening and being prepared to either accept it or to fight it. I don't know whether I want her to be able to be used like that or not, because on one hand, having the technical capacity to use the otherwise weakest character to become more capable than either of the other characters, I can respect that. On the other hand, she is supposed to be the weakest. And as we program things, it likely will come to pass that any situation in which she fights, she should be less skilled. I don't know, I just mentioned it because however it's done, it should be taken into consideration. There should be no glitch exploits that we don't allow that make it so Zelda surpasses everything and becomes some kind of glitchy tank. If we want to clarify either in-game, or in some sort of official document printed outside the game, this is, I think, technically the second Imprisoning War, but by the time you get to Breath of the Wild, there has been sufficient damaging of the records that the idea of a First and Second World War, or, in this case, Imprisoning War, have bled together in the minds of the far future. I made a verbal gaffe just now, but it is my point that it would not be surprising if 10,000 years from now on Earth, the World War I and II era is still remembered, but except to a few academics, it is never actually recognized as being two separate conflicts, but instead just a single conflict that they see as being bled together. Thank you. Okay, let's see, what are you suggesting? I think we need to work on the shape of the story itself. There still are sufficient background elements that we can clarify them without needing to have the in-game mechanics sufficiently defined to be sure that they will work with what we craft. So yes, the early game onboarding might be a decent follow-up, but let's focus on, not the singularity, which I think is how I described the threshold of the endgame, where you start to get towards different endings. No, we're going to talk about where we are at the start of the game, how we present where we are, and perhaps not as important in the grand scheme, but as a part of the prologue, it's required that we pin down what the theoretical story is as Link begins the actual game, if not his quest.

M: Let me either clarify for you or clarify for myself that I think that the link the player will be controlling. Well first we need to come up with a quick way to refer to him, and the other two. I'd be open to other suggestions, but at least at the moment I'm going to call him... DeltaLink, and the others would be DeltaZelda, and DeltaGanon. No I just told myself out loud why that can't be the case, DeltaZelda just sounds silly. Yeah, I definitely could use some suggestions, but until I've sent this and gotten a few, let's just call him LinkNow. So LinkNow is currently attempting to prevent the uprising of Ganon in some form. He has to be because Ganon will have to have at least some troops with him from the beginning of the actual main game sequence. So this Link is currently on some sort of quest. I'm going to brainstorm about it as I fall asleep tonight, but he's trying to do something which will allow him to hamstring Ganon's rise. Which means that Hyrule right now should actually be at the crest of the upswing about to perhaps go back down either a little bit or perhaps a lot depending on how well Link accomplishes his quest. The ruins have been rebuilt, but stopping the advance of Ganon could easily cause them to start getting converted into ruins again. We've got a good idea with the isolated temporal issues being included in the recounting of what's going on immediately. That's a good idea. As I'm thinking about it, incidentally, this Link, LinkNow, will need some form of companion. I'm again open to suggestions. Everyone hated Navi, and I'm not sure what other assistance he's had, especially recently. But he needs to be traveling with someone. I mean, Link has never really been a big talker as far as I can tell. So he needs a traveling companion of some sort. One who in the prologue can be describing how they got to where they are. Incidentally, the prologue can also double as Link's tutorial, and perhaps the interface tutorial. Because there should be a smooth transition in terms of menu and interaction between each of the three pillars. Let's see here. Yeah, this is, again, this is the near-ish the end of what one could call the average Link cycle. Like, for reference, let's go with the self-contained Link's Awakening, partly because that's one of the ones that I actually had and beat. It's good for reference because it has the tone of a single-game arc without having to worry about how it has been tied into the continuity, and how it could be connected to other games. So as I've mentioned, we're assuming a world where hundreds if not thousands of Links have had similar quests, even if they weren't truly major in terms of altering Hyrule. Like by that standard, the games that were made were the truly significantly massive shifts in the trajectory of the world that they inhabit. But there are hundreds of smaller cycles where a potential Ganon arose and even gathered his available minions, but never truly succeeded in finding an appropriately powerful source of magic or malice or whatever to hike up the threat level from continuous containment of Demise's curse into full-bore worldwide calamity. Link now should be on a quest that is something of a threshold case. Ganon has arisen, he has marshaled the troops of evil, and has possession of an artifact which could potentially push him into world domination level, but which has yet to be fully activated. I'll brainstorm on that some more. I think that's all coherent, but it's not detailed enough for my satisfaction yet. Yeah, this is something that I need to think on for a while. I don't think that your suggestions are going the correct direction, but there are elements of it that need to be included, not in the prologue, not in Chapter 0. Actually, maybe that's a good way of distinguishing things. Let's call the absolute first cinematic and link-controlled part the prologue. Chapter 0 will begin from Zelda's perspective at the point where the prologue ends. I'm going to work on this and think about it and come back, but I think where it's going is that Link is on his way to the minor quest equivalent of Death Mountain to do something which should prevent or at least mitigate Ganon's uprising when he realizes that there has been a shift of some kind. In some way which is not overly dramatic, but is substantial. I don't mean this literally, but something like as his companion is finishing the tale, Link is poking around the ruins in which he, his companion, and whoever the companion is telling the story to, or the local townspeople who have allowed him to stay in the local damaged church or something like that. Anyway, as Link is looking around, he finds something like a boomerang, and we're assuming this is like one of those boomerangs that is all fancy and is obviously part of the Hero of Time arsenal. As he's poking around, he sees something like a boomerang which is exactly or almost exactly like his. Like I said, that's not exactly what needs to happen, but that kind of simultaneously un-dramatic, but indicative of serious problems and perspective shifts which are amplified by occurring when it seems like everything is calm and understood.

M: I'm still shaping the introductory concept in my mind. The prologue story. While I'm doing that, can you please give me a couple... I don't know. Let's not say a couple. Let's say just a brief outline, but comprehensive, of what we've nailed down for the game in terms of storyline. And a description of the play mechanics at the point where it comes into the storyline. In a fashion for me to send, not to someone as a pitch, but to a friend where I'm trying to describe exactly what's being attempted.

M: Please do it one more time with a couple changes that I'd like to make permanent in this silo. First, if we're going to call them Zelda Prime and Ganon Prime, we might as well call him Link Prime. Second, the adversary, we're going to nail that down as being the Nintendo NES-era Link. He's the one that fits the bill most closely. You say that the Link Prime is aware that the hero's pattern keeps repeating. No, he's the usual, clueless Link. Any awareness comes over the course of the game. The only Link that knows anything about the pattern is the adversary. I think I would describe it as the three intertwining play styles, none of which are completely mandatory but which, if avoided, are detrimental to the player's progress, or at least make it more difficult. Clarifying about the incursions. We're going to say, at least at the moment, pretty much everything can be changed later, so make it about as permanent as any other decision that's been made so far. The Hyrule map, when the game starts, is a static picture of how things were before the adversary started making advances. If you need an in-game explanation, between Zelda and Ganon, there was a good understanding of the entirety of the area. Incursions can happen anywhere on the map, but only the ones that happen behind friendly lines are instantly made aware to the player. So, an incursion could occur in a part of the map that is either unexplored or unconquered. I think those might be two different things, depending on what game mechanics get instilled, where you can do scout missions, perhaps even ones directly involving Link, with the idea that they are going to a particular place that should be one thing, but might possibly have had an incursion turn it into another, or placed an obstacle in the past, or not in the past, in the path of the scout, that changes the dynamic of everything. Just as a note for later, if there is a scouting situation, the reporting method needs to be updated as research is updated. So, if, for example, you have researched certain mystical technologies, the same thing that allows for faster battlefield communication could also allow for scouts to report before they've actually returned, or even in the higher tiers of the tech tree, to give reasonable updates, not with, not in real time, perhaps, but in a way that would have been advantageous earlier in the game, so the user understands why this was a worthwhile effort. All of the incursions are supposed to be... Okay, using a universal is a dangerous thing until we've started really nailing things down. But I think that all of the incursions are supposed to be unscripted. At least in where and when they occur. If not in their actual nature. Except for in a couple cases. One, the first incursion needs to be scripted. Both as a tutorial for what's going on for first time players. And then if someone is replaying so that they know that incursion has begun. Even if it doesn't get employed as any actual contribution to game mechanics. Users appreciate that information even if it's only on a subconscious level. Oh, and I didn't finish off. And the second possibility would be for particular narrative events. They won't even necessarily exist, but my point is that it should be noted that incursions are available if some form of particular narrative development needs it in order to guarantee that the player deals with it, either as a universal thing, or if we want to make some allowances for various potential multiple endings, make them only occur if certain criteria are met along the way. Be sure to include the nature of the gameplay each character will be representing in this kind of description. You included the characters of Link, Zelda, and Ganon Prime, but... For this kind of informing summary, you should be including the nature of the gameplay each represents, with Link Prime being an exploratory adventure game. I'm thinking something in the line of... The old versions of Uncharted. Like before modern sensibilities, back when people were enjoying the creation process instead of filtering it out. Perhaps something like Uncharted blended with Assassin's Creed, where the exploration is minimized or removed, but the freedom of movement as you approach your goal is maintained. At least as well as possible, due to the fact that you probably need some invisible walls to keep people from wandering off. Zelda is... Like... A civilization-type game. Or maybe a better example would be the Super Nintendo game. I think it was Populous. Was it Populous? No, the over-game part of Actraiser, where it's less of the... Less of the fiddling with minutiae that you get in a civilization-type game. And more of making the big choices. We can make it so that the minutiae can in fact be fiddled with, but that should not be a requirement to get 90-95% out of the game, in terms of resources. And then Ganon Prime is the massive battles, the dynasty-warrior-style type thing, with maybe a bit of the game Brutal Legend folded in, where you can personally wade in and destroy the entire army if you have the skill, but it's just as skillful and perhaps a little less time-consuming to kill all 5,000 of the enemy, if you have a fair command of the real-time tactical command capacities of the game. Okay, that's what I got from reading through it. Can you please rewrite the summary for a friend after you blend my commentary into what you've already got?

M: Notes on this version. It occurs maybe centuries after the last game on this particular branch of the three parallel timelines, but not exactly 10,000 years after. Breath of the Wild is, if I remember correctly from what you said, supposed to be at least 10,000 years after everything, right? That gives us a lot of room to work with. So we're going to say centuries afterwards in this particular timeline, during which time at least 20 generations have passed, so there have been at least 20 iterations of Link, all of which have been part of the cycle of the hero that's required to exist to counterbalance the Curse of Demise and Ganondorf. But they all have managed to hold back the chaos well enough, that constant cycle of rise and fall, to a sufficient degree that it is now part of that timeline's almost accepted history, that things will get better, then some form of evil will begin to arise that they need to be prepared to face when it comes. It's always difficult because no one believes that it's starting in their lifetime, but eventually Link will show up and everyone will rally together and fight against things and it will all be renewed. This has cycled enough times that there are even knowledge vaults of a kind, almost like a time capsule in our world, in which the cycle has been sufficiently acknowledged that each Zelda that occurs updates at least one of them and then tries to create a new one of their own, something that is hidden well enough that the chaotic ruins that inevitably occur may obscure the vaults, but they are there so that this information doesn't become fragmented. This information doesn't become fragmented. So by the time we reach the time of the game, Link Prime is about as well informed about the history of his timeline in general, like not necessarily in the specifics, but he's aware he's part of this cycle because it has happened often enough and has finally begun to be recorded. That was more information that I dragged out of myself than I knew when I started making the note. It all still needs to be remembered, but for what you gave me, the point is this isn't 10,000 years after the last game in the timeline, but also 10,000 years before Breath of the Wild. It's a few centuries after that last game and then Breath of the Wild occurs 10,000 years after this game. You should really stop, at least in the descriptors, you should stop describing the adversary as the very first hero, because in the game world, and in his dimension, he's actually the last one. I'm just saying it makes for a very odd potential for equivocation, because every time I read the first hero, I automatically think of the Skyward Sword one. You can probably start describing him as the final hero of the Darkest Timeline, or something like that, and then once you've done that, maybe parenthetically include that he was the protagonist of the original NES games. So to hammer home the point, the adversary isn't the first hero. The first hero is the guy from Skyward Sword. The adversary is the final hero of the Darkest Timeline. Okay, so we've got that. Now you seem to be functioning under a kind of misapprehension. There's no reincarnation, at least not for the Link side of things, in the whole yin-yang of Link and Ganon. Each Link is a new soul who has a tie to the spirit, the hero spirit. It's not that he has been overwhelmed by the reincarnation. It's that after getting through the two Nintendo games and what happened in there, he was shown something or learned something that made him realize not only how horrible of a hand he'd been dealt in terms of all the Links available, that he was in the worst possible situation, but that even with that comparison that he realized how much destruction and suffering the Curse of Demise had brought to Hyrule. And perhaps much too long when his Zelda was killed in some form and removed as a balancing force, he began to take a very a very much darker approach to believing that either Demise had to be stopped at the beginning or the cycle had to be ended. I'm thinking on my feet with that part, because we'll have to come up with a reason why Demise could not be stopped. Probably something involving how, due to his nature, there was no way of eliminating him without the Curse occurring, and then the hero spirit being naturally formed as a kind of mystical, physical, necessary counterbalance to that demand on the structure of the world. Since it couldn't be ended there, he felt he had to find a way to end the cycle. Whether that was through the ending of the entirety of the world, or by at least closing the loop, either way is acceptable to his dark perspective. Again, I got off kind of on a descriptive tangent, but where I started is important compared to your description. It's not that he's been reincarnated, because every Link is a new soul, but every soul that was a Link is then tied to the hero spirit in a way that the adversary collects and uses in his efforts to travel the various timelines and different times in order to close the loop. Just had a thought, remember this as a possibility, perhaps Zelda dying isn't what set him on this particularly bleak mission. It might make for a smoother narrative if his first attempt was a more noble one, an effort to go and remove demise from the timeline before the curse could cause the creation of the hero spirit and then lead inevitably to where they are right now. When he did that, Zelda went with him. I'm not sure whether as an objecting party or completely willingly, but in the process of finding out that removing demise, no matter how much power you had, was not going to be able to prevent his curse and the creation of the hero spirit, Zelda died and was removed as the balancing force that kept him from traveling down the path in the form he has as the adversary. Again, you might need to look up that character butcher so you have a better idea of what I'm talking about if you haven't already. I'm not sure if I made sure you had looked it up. To clarify about Zelda and the information loss, she knows things in general about what's going on, but we have to make sure that she doesn't know enough that it looks like she was withholding information from Link as he went out. That can be a point of narrative friction, but it should not be the case that Zelda can provide information simply because she doesn't have it. The Vaults are supposed to be durable stores of information, but their implementation needs to be kind of... They need to be given in-game justification for not being able to contain serious amounts of information, just very durable, general information. What I mean is that it can't just be a book, because at that point you just end up in a situation where the player starts wondering, rightly so, why they didn't just include a second volume with a lot more detail. It has to be more along the lines of A situation where... everything is written on stone tablets. I don't mean that as being the literal choice we're going with, just as an example. Or another example, not for this game, but as a parallel, is how... CDs or DVDs or even Blu-rays, stacked on top of each other, can be the size of an internal drive, but not hold nearly as much, partly because they are hard-coded for durability. It's the same concept. We have to make sure that there isn't the degree of detail to last through the ages. To the degree that it gives the... characters any kind of either advantage or the stupidity of not knowing why they aren't using it. It needs to be just enough to move the narrative along and make sure it's understood why it is they haven't completely forgotten everything. Oh, and this is not involved with your descriptor, but I think that the assisted character for Link at this point needs to be some form of magical automaton, either infused with a soul or some sort of magical-based personality. At this point, it doesn't matter what personality it is, but that Link that is small enough, like eight inches tall, made of some sort of metal and clay combination, like a marionette, and that travels with Link as kind of a PDA and recorder of what's going on. He has loyalty to Link, but actually has existed through like three or four iterations of Link. And his intended purpose is not a loyalty specifically to Link, but to the country itself, if just because of the fact that if Hyrule falls, he likely will de-animate as well. This could be played in the narrative to give a small cul-de-sac of suspicion and redemption to the Golem character, but not necessarily. But the point is, he's small enough that his usual use can be or rather, not usual use, but usual position can be some kind of pocket sewed onto Link's sword sheath, where he folds up almost like a transformer into a block that can give advice and otherwise just take note of things. The reason I bring it up, and the reason I thought of this, is because it's one of the aspects of the prologue that I'm working on, that I'm certain of. In the prologue, the Golem will be the one telling the country folk about what Link Prime has gone through so far. Probably while Link Prime is taking care of Epona Prime, brushing them down. Whatever. I'm still working on that part of the story, but the Golem is a definite piece of things. I don't have a name for them yet, so don't worry about that. Getting back to your last version of the summary, and the minor corrections, or even major corrections. While your description that she commands the recovery effort, etc., is technically correct, I'd present it more as a proactive than reactive thing. She rallies the country. She is the figurehead. She's the... there's one way of thinking of it. She's constantly in charge of the nation's defense in this sense. Zelda Prime is the strategist. Ganon Prime is the tactician. She is handling not just the defense, but the offense in terms of what needs to be done. If you make a decision from the map scene, she is involved. Ganon Prime is the tactician. He advises Zelda, perhaps, but in the end, he follows her direction of where to go and what to try to accomplish, but he's the one who makes the decisions in how that target is accomplished. I would drop in there that Link's quest not only discover ancient relics or resources but also drive the narrative progression. His discoveries mark the progress of the story and inform the three main characters as to what's going on. And in doing so, gives them the information they need to decide where to go next. Technically, a player could just systematically retake the entirety of Hyrule, but doing so should not be possible. Without taking so long that a positive ending is no longer entirely possible. At least, not without doing so in the kind of dramatic fashion that would, in gaming terms, earn you at least a gold trophy. Probably the last trophy in order to 100% things. So Link is essential to conclude things in a timely fashion before either the forces become overwhelming or so much subjective time is spent that the adversary has collected all he needs to roll the dice on the future of the entire world. Compared to everything else, this is a minor thing, but I wouldn't say Zelda's policies keep the world stable, because at this point, stability is a non-existent term. Zelda's policies keep the world from crumbling in the face of the adversary. That's a little bit wordy, but I hope you can see the distinction. Please try rewriting the summary one more time, incorporating the elements that I have commented on.

M: Okay, let's nail down the prologue, and then move on to clarifying the backstory. Both of these can be altered in the future, but I'm trying to get it to a point where we can build a functional narrative on what we have, instead of just saying we'll come up with it later. Okay, so for the prologue, what I've got so far is largely what I've said already in terms of the overarching idea. Link Prime is somewhere like 75% along in his personal version of the usual quest to stop Ganon from gaining power. This isn't a particularly legend-worthy version of the story, although it is getting close. Ganon Prime has what he needs to start his takeover. He has managed without getting to the point where he has supernatural levels of mystical power. He has managed through his personal strength, understanding of magic, and dark charisma to marshal the hordes that will usually come under the shadow of his campaign to conquer in other versions of the legend. What Link is currently doing is not particularly important, but we're going to temporarily nail it down and only replace it if it becomes a significant part of the narrative. For now, we're going to say that Link is on his way to intercept an elite squad Ganon has sent to find the particular mineral mystical element in the mountains that he needs to activate the current artifact he holds which could connect him to the supernatural level of powers past Ganons have been able to get. This Link is in some... Link Prime is somewhat in a hurry, but the mountains are not only treacherous, but the particular mineral Ganon needs can't just be the first one they find. He needs a particular shape and configuration which will take them a while to collect, so in the meantime on the road he has enough time to take a preparatory night to marshal his abilities. He is on the outskirts of a town that exists at the base of the mountains that he's going to have to go into. Link Prime is taking care of his horse Epona Prime after taking care of a small nest of unaffiliated monsters that had been threatening the town. He took care of the nest without even realizing this was a problem. Now while he does the horse grooming and prepares all of the average stuff that you really don't see in a Legend of Zelda game, but that necessarily has to occur, you know, like making dinner. While he's doing that, the golem creature, we're just going to call him Golem until a suitable name is found, is talking to townspeople who have come out to where Link Prime is. He's in a field next to a church which is not currently used but isn't the normal state of disrepair. And so the golem is talking to the townspeople, giving the backstory of this particular legend. The golem is, by the way, fairly discreet. Like, he does not often tell people, certainly not upon first meeting them, that he has been through this quest thing multiple times. He is judicious, even though he's gregarious. He's good at talking to people, but not in a way that necessarily informs them more than he deems necessary. He knows that he is a repository for information which, at the very least, could disturb people in ways that they would not be able to then deal with. Kind of how someone who investigates the probability of Earth getting hit by a meteor is somewhat circumspect in their discussion of their job, simply because their job is finding out how likely it is that humanity will be destroyed by something that they can't control. Basically, he doesn't have to be a character that the player likes. We just don't want him to be hated by the fanbase because he's over the top. And it fits into the game because, unlike Navi, who is just way too exuberant, at the very least for their own good in terms of popularity, this is a creature who has gone through some stuff. So no bubbly naivety. They might be uninformed, but it's possible that they are putting on that act simply because directly giving the information won't provide the context in which that information would be able to be applied. Okay, so Golem is talking to the townspeople while Link Prime is doing the caretaking. He's got Epona hitched to a fence near the church. It starts off in the prologue as a cutscene where it starts focusing on Golem with Link in the background. And it follows Golem long enough that the player understands where you are in the story. At which point the focus shifts from Golem to Link Prime brushing down Epona. Link Prime looking a little bit tired, a little bit bemused, a little bit of the classic Link blank face. And it will require a little bit of camera work. But the church should, without being in the foreground, blink briefly into a ruined state. Like a brief flicker of something that could become an incursion, even though they don't know about that yet. Link doesn't notice it. And it should be brief enough and obscured enough that the player can't even notice it without knowing what they're looking for and a slow motion replay. But the ruin of the church has on an upper floor the body of a different Link. Not directly visible, just with a hand where he fell. Visible off the side of a broken floor through a ruined wall. For the brief moment that it's in this reality, in the background where an unintentive player might even miss it, this dead link, who isn't one of the primary game ones, is one of the multitudes that I've talked about before that have lived minor lives, following the pattern but not necessary to such a scale as to be worth being more than part of the story. The hand flickers in, holding a boomerang of the classic style. What I mean is that I'm not sure if this is verified or contradicted in the official material, but I'm thinking that the boomerang is its own type of artifact, that if it isn't the same one found by every link, that there is some sort of mystical association, and that the fairies he's always getting involved with are able to make it so that even if it isn't the same boomerang for every link, at the same time, it's always the same spirit of the boomerang, if that makes sense. It's always the same shape, the same stylings, the same quality of being an artifact, even if it was, for that link, newly minted by the fairy that gave it to him or in the dungeon that he found it in. And if the official things contradict it, we can use something a little bit more obscure but still obvious to the Zelda canon, like we can make it so that it's an ocarina instead. Basically something that, when the flicker of the incursion precursor happens, the deceased link is holding the object, and then it drops before the incursion flickers out again. This is what Link Prime notices, he hears the fall, he pats Epona and goes to the corner of the now-completely-intact old church, and finds on the ground either the boomerang or the ocarina or whatever that matches his. He reaches into his pockets and pulls out its twin and holds it up. As he does so, there's a swell, not overwhelming but disquieting, of ominous music that should almost seem out of place if you don't know what's going on already. And that's the end, and I think that's the end of the prologue cutscene. I'm not sure if we're going to have there be any action, any player participation or tutorial or whatever attached to it. That can be determined later. What we're worried about right now is the narrative, the initial narrative upon which everything will be built. I'm still working on what will be happening that lets you tie in Zelda Prime and Ganon Prime in terms of parallel cutscenes and perhaps tutorials as part of the prologue. Or the Chapter Zero. Please remind me of the distinction I made between what the prologue and what Chapter Zero should include. But that's at least Link Prime's version of the prologue, Link Prime's section. Please repeat that back to me after you tell me what I said earlier about the distinction between the prologue and Chapter Zero.

M: A couple expansions or clarifications. First, the Golem is designed, when not functioning as Link Prime's mouthpiece, not to sit on the hilt, but to be located in a prepared pocket on the belt of the sheath that Link carries for his sword and shield. When he's functioning as Link's PR person, the Golem is supposed to be gregarious and engaging. The part that I said about discretion is manifest in what he says, not how he says it. On the surface, especially when, again, acting as Link's PR, he's like a likable version of Navi. Bubbly, engaging, someone that people actually want to listen to, a good storyteller. It's not that he switches this on and off when he's talking to people he knows, just that he knows his role and does it well. He amplifies it when he's trying to engage people. In this case, he's reassuring the people, maybe even finding out that what Link Prime had done was not just part of his usual efforts as a hero, but an actual kind of side quest that he accomplished without even knowing it. Like, these people should be acting grateful. You know, they brought out maybe a fresh chicken and some cider to the guy that they saw riding with a sword, hoping to convince him to help them, only to find out that he had already done it. The actual phrasing will be worked on later, when we start working on dialogue. The concept is really the only thing that needs to be recorded right now. Yeah. What you've got there for the never-lies-simply-edits-the-truth selective-omission, that's a good way to describe his discretion. The only thing that I've already mentioned is that if he ever comes off as melancholy, it's only when it's in private with just Link or something like that. And it shouldn't even be a straight transformation, but just a dialing back of his gregariousness. He might, when he's acting as Link's hype man, he's allowed to even perhaps stray into the whimsical area. He can be funny, like I said, he needs to be a good storyteller, and usually still functions at that level even in private, although maybe tuned back just a bit. But it looks like you've got the character mostly defined. To clarify for the cutscene, it starts with what I just described. Link rides up. The townspeople are looking to recruit him to help them. They find out he already did. There may be time cuts as the dialogue requires, but it should basically be conveyed that they came out to recruit him and then stayed because the golem was explaining first Link already saved them. They'll take the food gladly and then it starts sharing first the recent history and then the story of the current Link's quest, Link Prime's quest. Once it starts rolling sufficiently, once we've established that golem is a gifted storyteller, that the people are engaged, and that it seems like this is going to be just a minor version of the usual Legend of Zelda story, only then does it start to do more than just keep Link doing the maintenance work in the background. That's when it shifts to him in the foreground and when the church stuff happens, the incursion stuff, the dead Link should be almost completely hidden. It's entirely possible that you could argue that he isn't even necessarily dead at that point, simply incapacitated by the adversary or his forces at that exact moment. I mean, a lot of the Legend of Zelda involves the kind of coincidence that can only come about through godlike intervention or narrative necessity, so either version is possible. For our current purposes, the detail that needs to be remembered is that this is supposed to be just shy of being an easter egg. The player knows there was an incursion flicker, even if they don't know what it's called yet, and they know that when it happened, a piece of another timeline fell in that shows link that something is amiss. But it's framed so that unless you know you are looking for the hand, or you go looking specifically for where the shadowy item started its fall, if you don't know what you're looking for there, the hand looks like and blends in with the wreckage of the wall and floor, looking just like another piece of wrecked silhouette. The only other detail that needs to be noted, or emphasized, is that when Link pulls out whatever version of item we're talking about, whether we go with the Boomerang or the Ocarina, or at this point it could even be the Sword, given the nature of how he finds it, wherever he pulls it from needs to be consistent with where he pulls things from in the rest of gameplay. Previous versions of Link have hand-waved his ability to seemingly pull. You know, a bow and arrow, a bomb, and an Ocarina seemingly all out of his same butthole. And it could in fact be a magical bag-of-holding type situation. But as details and storyboards are finalized, we just need to make sure that he doesn't, like, if it's the Ocarina, he doesn't fiddle with a small pouch on his belt and pull his own Ocarina out from there, and then later in the game have him pull it out of just a backpack or something. It's a minor thing, but one that your retelling of things made me think of. Oh, and if it's possible, we need to make sure that in the inventory of Link, if that's how we go about things, with an actual inventory screen, that both versions are at least initially in Link's inventory. So if he finds a Boomerang Doppelganger, at least at first, he should be in possession of two Boomerangs. As we progress in figuring out the narrative after the game actually begins, we might be able to use this to implement some form of unique mechanic, such as creating a dual Boomerang system, allowing for Link Prime to distract and hit or otherwise accomplish things he couldn't with only one Boomerang. I mean, it's gotta be magical. Real Boomerangs don't consistently fly back to the user, let alone in a way that lets them catch it. So we could play around with that to allow him for some form of unique combat puzzle-solving or traversal mechanism. And even if we don't do that, we can make a minor branch of narrative sidequests, an effort, an explicit effort, or even a quest criteria that isn't explicitly stated but happens as a secret quest, a situation in which if you keep both versions with you instead of selling them or putting them into storage, I'm not exactly sure what would happen there because this is kind of both a state-sponsored quest and an effort to save the world that should in some form supersede economic considerations, but if you keep the second version around up until the right point, you can trigger some sort of revelation which may not be necessary for understanding the overarching bits of what's going on but which maybe fills in what seems like a gaping plot hole to the player. As a side note, would you be able to inform me when we start getting within 10% of the maximum chat size for this particular silo? I've had one silo completely fill up to a degree that even exporting it was a chore with questionable results. I'd rather not have this one do the same thing without knowing it's coming.

M: You don't need to rewrite the prologue, just take these couple notes and incorporate them into what you have recorded. It's a minor thing, but when you say that Ganon Prime carries, quote, the key to true supernatural power, unquote, that should be something more like one of many paths to the same supernatural power of the beast Ganon. I mean, that's kind of the point, is that this keeps happening because, I suppose, through the shattering of Demise and the various ways that the truly powerful Ganons have harnessed their supernatural abilities through various instruments, that by this time the path of Ganon to reclaim what a previous incarnation lost are various and sundry. It's why there's always at least a minor quest for any generation's link to undertake. It's because each incarnation of Ganon is seeking power, and there's always going to be a way he can find. And the question is whether that connection is direct and powerful, or if it's a convoluted repair of a fragment that existed once, and can be made part of the whole again, but by itself needs a jumpstart. Again, in context it's a minor thing, but in overarching narrative terms it's an important element to clarify. There is not one route for Ganon to follow, no single key to supernatural power, and that might not even have been what you meant. You might have been talking about exactly what I've been pontificating on for the last few minutes, but it's important to keep clear that Ganon might not be able to rise easily exactly, but it is easy for him to find a road to rising to the level of calamity. The question is just whether he is following one of the simpler dirt roads to power at the beginning, or if he has stumbled upon a superhighway which could potentially get him there that much faster. Another minor clarification is that Link isn't riding towards the end of his quest, because if he prevents the activation, he only prevents Ganon Prime from being supernaturally powerful. Ganon Prime still has armies at his command. It's what Zelda will be addressing in her section in Chapter 0. What Link Prime is doing right now is mitigation, not ending. There will still be a Ganon, and if he is not stopped, he still has legions at his command, which could potentially overrun Hyrule. And so, Zelda is marshalling her forces to counterbalance this. The point is, if he is successful, Link Prime still will then have to reconnect with Zelda and figure out where he can best be used to face the still-mortal Ganon's hordes. Perhaps as an independent agent outside of her armies, looking to do stealth adventure and straight-up fight his way towards Ganon as a final duel or showdown. Hypothetically, because it never gets to that point. But just in framing the narrative, it's important to get those little details right so that they don't contradict future discussions or attitudes. Ugh. Another minor thing. I like everything in The Arrival, but to clarify, Golem is supposed to be humanoid. He's supposed to be... a universally acceptable construct. Maybe he can move with spidery precision, but I don't want that to either be what he conveys in this situation where he's supposed to be, again, playing the part of spokesman, not information or recorder. So, he should be more welcoming. My point is that when you use an adjective like spidery, very descriptive and very much not what someone attempting to blend in with unknown humans would do. People have a natural revulsion towards spiders, so the Golem would avoid that, at least at this point. It's a minor thing again. In principle, you have the right idea about what Golem is doing, where he's describing how fragile Hyrule is. But he should be playing the part of... What's the word I'm looking for? There's a word that's escaping me, but what he should be doing shouldn't be recounting the fragility that Hyrule currently is at, but instead hyping people up. Not pointing out the weakness for them to walk around, but for them to protect. He's in recruitment mode. Perhaps not trying to directly get people to enlist for the battle, but getting them... What's the word? Patriotic. Strengthening their souls, because even if they're not fighting, their endurance and durability will be required to keep the country going. As they drive back Ganon, he is encouraging them, not just as a town, but trying to give them steel in their spines that can spread to the other small locales. Letting them know that they are not forgotten by their country, and asking without demanding that they honor that acknowledgement with their own commitment to making the country better for everyone. Give me any feedback you might have, and then I'll go start ruminating about what's necessary for Zelda and Ganon to be introduced to the narrative.

M: Okay, I'm still going to need time to clarify, but your recounting shows me that either I've been unclear about a couple things, or have given me enough feedback that I can be more clear than I was before about a couple things. You've got the idea about the cycle of Gannon pretty much down. I liked the term fractal in your description of how the cycle repeats itself, because it's very much the brief clear description I was looking for. The games that have been made have been the major spikes in the fractal, but there always is a way for the current reincarnation of Gannon who, by the terms of the Curse, not only will eventually come back, but will be reincarnated with all capital letters, WILL be reincarnated. And so there must always be a hero, and because they could not be Gannon without trying to achieve power, there always will be a crisis, no matter how fractally small. It's possible for there to have been a Gannon who hadn't even set their sights on the world, but only was looking to dominate a barony or something. If they had succeeded, they would have been brutal, and perhaps begin making an expansion, and perhaps in that limited fashion, there was already some form of jewel in that Gannon's family line, which was a corrupt fragment of a jewel that Demise particularly prized, that was only influencing things passively. So even though that fractal bit was small, it still was a repetition. And I'm elaborating on that partially for my benefit. You seem to have the right idea there. What you have gone in the wrong direction with is that you make it seem like Link and this particular quest were somehow a gate for Zelda's future actions. She is aware of Link Prime's efforts, but it is not defining what she does. She is going to have to lead her country against Gannon, whether that's as a fully powered beast Ganon, or simply the Gannon, or simply the mortal Ganon Prime, who still has hordes ready to overrun Hyrule if she is not careful. What Link is doing is parallel, not an action upon which she will contingently make decisions. And Link Prime might not be completely at the end of his quest, but he is very close to it in terms of actions, if not time. He has been sent to prevent Ganon from achieving Calamity status, but he also knows that even if he's successful, there is still one more fight, even if it is only the single fight left for him and the rest of the country. There was something about the way that you were putting it that made me think you needed a little bit more readjustment to the way that I'm envisioning things. It's like you almost have it, but not quite. I think it's that you said that it only stabilizes the situation long enough for Zelda to activate. Zelda's perspective was going to activate no matter what happens. She is already dealing the way that a good ruler would. If anything, Ganon Prime is the one that is waiting for what happens to Link. It's why Ganon will be the one who is dealt with last. Partly because he is expecting success, expecting to have his power awakened, and the one who will have to decide his next course of action once he finds out that Link has prevented his ascendance. He's Ganon, so there's no way that he's going to say, well that didn't work, let's go home. The question is how he will approach things. Now that's all from his perspective. We know the adversary is coming. Ganon Prime will be the last character introduced by necessity as well as because of what I just said. Because the way that I will have this arranged in the end, the Hyrule map that we start with will be constructed from his knowledge of where his armies were combined with Zelda's awareness of her country. Because Ganon is the first one to encounter the adversary, Ganon Prime. The adversary hits Ganon Prime from behind. The adversary is still based on the Link he was originally, so there is an intrinsic desire to just stomp the hell out of the Ganons he encounters, no matter his primary objective in any particular time. So what's going to happen is that the third part, which it seems like I'm brainstorming on right now before we start on the Zelda chapters here apart, what happens to Ganon Prime, he will have found out probably through some form of mystical means that he loses access to in later actions that this path of Ascendancy to Calamity scale has been closed to him. But because he has the armies gathered, armies which are intrinsically chaotic and cannot be held off while he devises a new plan of Ascendancy, which he hasn't even figured out yet, he will attack, because he's game. He believes he will be enough to turn the tides, even without supernatural, mystic, beast abilities. This is what he will be planning, what his armies will be preparing to do, when the adversary strikes. This is the adversary. We've already defined him as being the super-powered, amoral version of him, the end-game version without any of the aversions that would come from being associated with Zelda and the side of good, and with the knowledge of time and dimensions that have allowed him to ensnare the hero spirit and gaslight the skyward sword hero of time, the beginning of the cycle. So he has enough information that he should have been able to curb-stomp Ganon Prime, just like he has all the others, out of a sense of vengeance and a lingering feeling of satisfaction at vanquishing the holders of the Triforce of Power. However, a simple, almost childish outburst by Ganon, combined with an almost uncharacteristic decision to, instead of not just killing the messenger, but the entire squad the messenger reports to, his uncharacteristic decision to instead take a moment, walk away from the command tent, and stare into the distance and think, helps him escape from this almost invincible attack from a position of external knowledge. The extra-dimensional explosion that should have killed, or at least incapacitated him, in the command tent, instead, nearly knocks him down. And because he was supposed to be neutralized, the follow-up mop-up controlled incursion by the forces of the adversary. ...are not as swift as they would have needed to be to hit Ganon Prime if he escaped. This is how Gavin Prime uses a lot of his capacity as a in-game explanation. The things he would use to, say, remotely communicate. Things of that nature. If they weren't blown up, they were part of the camp that got wrecked. As it is, he's able to escape with himself. The weaponry he carried, including the artifact he had been trying to activate. The map he had angrily brought with him when he realized he had to readjust his plans. And a few forces which he didn't so much rally as manage to corral as the adversary invaded his command post. Gannon Prime is able to use his map to reach a nearby outpost and acquire horses and a few more troops. And through the charisma and fear that he carries with him, is able to gather a minor army around him from the surrounding areas. Only to have a more nuanced view of the route his forces face as the adversary has recollected itself. And as he watches, completely destroys the first two... What's the word? Not scouting, but probing forces that he sends to test the new opponent's strength. Gannon Prime can feel through instinct his connection to the Triforce of Power and his attunement to magic that there is something in this adversary that he needs to avoid but longs to crush. We know the reason now, but from his perspective, he thinks it's got nothing to do with the nature of the adversary, only that this creature seems to possess the power that he wants. Actually, even though this is the third character presented, I'm glad that I talked about second because I think it's going to shape how the Zelda portion of Chapter Zero goes. She doesn't have Ganon's dark magic connections, allowing him to get instant communication. She only has delayed reports from the front, but what she is seeing in her part of Chapter Zero will be odd reports of infighting and a shifting of the command posts coming ever closer to the border. I'll have to talk this through later, but as a temporary premise, we're going to assume that she sends a messenger out to intercept Link Prime, who she knows is on his way, or at least trusts it to complete the quest. She knows he is on his way towards her to reconvene and plan future fights. Zelda Prime sends the messenger to direct him to go directly towards Ganon in an attempt to head off whatever odd plan she believes he has that would cause him to make such radically unpredictable moves compared to the usual flow of war in terms of probabilities and choices. This doesn't fit in with anything that she in all her studies and experience has seen, and so she believes her best choice in preventing it from surprising her troops, which are not yet fully prepared for the unexpected, from having to face it. She trusts Link. She sends him directly towards Ganon Prime. I'll move on to clarifying Zelda's part of Chapter Zero once this is over, but I expressed that part to explain why it is that as Ganon moves from outpost to base, always getting closer to the front between his forces and those of the Hyrule Kingdom, growing progressively more desperate as his forces, no matter what he does, are stymied and overrun, explains why as he nears the front during his latest attempt to counter the forces of the adversary. Because this is Ganon. He's not going to stop, especially when he has other people's or creatures' lives to throw at the problem. But even if he's left with nothing but his own weapons and arrogance, how it is that as Ganon Prime nears the front, watching the last attempt he has made to get his forces to at least stop and bring the adversary's forces to a standstill, begins to crumble in a slaughter, how it is that while he watches, Link Prime rides up on Epona, unnoticed. We see Link Prime unable to see the carnage going on that Ganon can see. Instead Link Prime is confused. This is the big bad and he's not even aware of what's going on. Link gets off of Epona quietly, thinking he has surprised his enemy and looking to approach stealthily and get as close as possible. If not, outright stab the guy while he's not watching. But as he approaches Ganon, he also can begin to see the utter stomping Ganon's forces are receiving. Ganon is stone-faced. There's no empathy or regret outside of the loss of tools, but there's no other expression on his face either. He's basically at a loss. Again, he's Ganon. He isn't avoiding the fight out of fear, but because he knows that so far his tactics have not worked and is unwilling to commit himself when he still has the opportunity to throw minions into the fight and find a weak point. But he hasn't been able to find any and he has tried pretty much every trick that he had available to him. He doesn't notice Link and Link could easily run him through, but as Link approaches he sees what's going on and is shocked. Ganon may be a sociopath, but Link is overwhelmed by the death even of monsters, especially when it seems to be at the hands of what looks like monsters and some kind of humans working in conjunction with giant versions of creatures that perhaps Link himself hasn't seen because they haven't come into play in his version of the repeating fractal quest, but that the player will recognize, at least some of, while others are corrupted versions of alternate Links who have succumbed to the mission of the adversary. Link and Ganon both watch the carnage, Ganon nonplussed and Link stunned for quite a moment. Ganon is almost humanly startled when he realizes that his natural opponent, the person he thought of as his major obstacle, has been not just at his back but obviously prepared or at least capable of killing him for an undetermined amount of time. His reaction would be comical if it weren't for the surroundings, and make a note of that, it should not attempt to actually be comical. It can walk up to the line, but you're still watching essentially the last battle occurring or at least starting, and the weight of that should dampen any kind of humor. Link has barely registered that Ganon has noticed his presence because of the carnage. He is in the kind of shock you would get if you walked into a room and found a pile of dismembered bodies, it is not even horror or disgust, it is an overwhelming of the sensibilities. The one that does react, that is able to react, is Golem. He detaches himself from Link, and I'd like to make a note here that he should not be at the belt, he should be somewhere on the shoulder. My picture of Link has him with some kind of strap going around the shoulder, but that might be technically wrong, but Golem is supposed to be up at conversational height, not down by the waist. Anyway, Golem is the recorder, he can also see things, so he sees Ganon move. He unfolds himself, walks to Link's shoulder, and almost gently asks Ganon Prime what happened. I think that might be the end of the scene. If it's not, it's the end of that part of the scene. I'll think on whether or not it needs a cutscene follow-up, or if that becomes part of the player interactive bit. I think as I'm seeing it in my head, that what will happen is, that's the end of the Ganon scene. Slam cut to black for a moment. Then the cutscene beginning Chapter 1 starts with Link Prime on Epona Leading what appears to be Ganon with his hands bound Being pulled along like a prisoner We'll get into this part later, but the point is that Golem and Ganon Came to an agreement Ganon is nothing if not prideful, but he also is Intelligent and Not And not unaware of who he is or his circumstance At that point he only appears to be bound so that Link can bring him into the castle to converse with Zelda We'll get to the rest later, but For now, please repeat to me not the part that I said about Zelda's part of Chapter 0, but just what it sounds like I told you about the Ganon portion of Chapter 0

M: Okay, clarifications that I'm seeing necessary from your feedback. First, a note. The artifact that Ganon Prime was looking to use to ascend to Calamity Power it may or may not be damaged, but what I really wanted to note right here is that at this point I'm not sure whether it's Chekhov's gun or a red herring. I think it's important to keep that with him partially because there's no reason or way that even temporarily pushed back from his desires that Ganon would part with such a powerful potential artifact even for a minute, and partially as a reminder in the narrative that there can be no use of a trope where Ganon was the bad guy but through mutual hardships and effort there is a grudging respect which leads to a neutrality after all of the battles are done. This is fucking Ganon. He and Link are cosmically designed to fight each other. It could even add a little bit of, I'm not sure what the word would be, melancholy, pathos, maybe a bit of... I don't want to say regret. The point is Ganon can trust, or at least so he believes he can trust, Link and Zelda because they are what he is not. As long as they are required to be battling the same opponent, as long as they're required to face the adversary, he knows he can trust them. He also knows that they know they can't trust him, but he also knows that they could even begin to forget that. But he never will, and the artifact is not the cause of this knowledge but the focus of it. He has the cynical awareness, even if he doesn't have the entire story of Hyrule and the multiple dimensions and all that, even if he doesn't have that information, he has the gut instinct and the connection to Demise and all of the Ganons before him telling him that telling him that there is no peace for him that isn't domination. He is cynical. He enjoys himself. He even can, in his own twisted way, enjoy relaxing around his current allies, but he can do that because he knows he is the most devious. He is the most clever. He will be the one who does the first betrayal. And the artifact needs to be kept in the story, even if it isn't used in any of the narratives. As any kind of method of advancing things, either in a positive or negative way. Simply as a reminder to him, to the story writers, and if necessary to the audience, that however close, however even intimately knowledgeable of each other, the three characters get, there will be no happy ending where Ganon gets what he wants. And if Ganon doesn't get what he wants, he will fight to make sure that there is no happy ending for anyone else. To make sure that there is no happy ending for anyone else. I need to clarify that Ganon Prime misinterprets what he feels about the Adversary simply because it is unique in all of the timelines. So it's not even like his connection to the various Children of Demise from the past, the various Ganons that have come before him, could even potentially feed him through instinct or mystical knowledge what that sensation is. Because what he's feeling is the kind of power that only he usually can access. Not dark magic explicitly, but a dark use of neutral magic, overlaying the kind of reflexive hatred he has for Link or anyone channeling the Hero Spirit. So, the reason I'm saying it is that he should not be seeing this as something familiar. He senses that it is wrong because it's from another time, and it's darkness and magic and the Triforce of Courage all overlaid. And so he certainly should not be able to say that it feels familiar, but he definitely can tell that it is powerful and wrathful and trying to take him out. One of the reasons why I was so explicit in a previous description about how at least one branch should have a final battle that isn't against the massive boss, but just a middle-aged Link, is because that middle-aged Link should never appear otherwise. It should always either be through proxies or magical masks or some form in which, even if you have managed to work out, either through gameplay or checking online, that the adversary is that final hero of the darkest timeline. You shouldn't be able to see him as he truly is unless you reach that ending. You might think he is one of the distorted versions, or he should present himself as being the great and powerful Oz, never showing the man behind the mask unless you fulfill certain requirements. Speaking of masks, because this guy is dimension and time-hopping, I don't know if masks of the form that are in the game, Majora's Masks, should be a primary game mechanic. But at the very least, those could be included as collectibles. That has nothing directly to do with what we're talking about. I just would like you to make a note of it for further exploration. A little bit of emphasis. You say Ganon's pride is intact but his options are gone. Saying Ganon has pride is almost redundant. His pride will always be intact. If his pride is broken, it's because his face is broken. There is no situation. Ganon is pride.

M: A little bit more clarity. Ganon Prime, his enjoyment of the Alliance, even though it's born of necessity, and he will abandon it easily the moment it's no longer necessary, and he sees a way to break it to his advantage, both short-term and, in this case, allowing him to survive long-term, which is the reason he agrees to it anyway in the first place. While it's necessary, he is perfectly capable of enjoying it, not grimly, but almost wholeheartedly, if in a dark way, that from the perspective of the side of light might seem a bit dark, but there's nothing grim about it. It's... I don't want to say sociopathic, because that's not exactly what it is, but the capacity to enjoy it without any regret or hesitation when it has to be discarded is what I'm trying to get at that's nearly sociopathic. This isn't supposed to contradict your last statement with where there is no peace for me, but domination. It's that while there is not peace during this, that doesn't mean that there is no peace for me, but there is no peace for me. During this, that doesn't mean that he has to go all goth about it all the time. I mean, that's one of those pieces of Ganon that never really gets fleshed out, because he's never really closely followed, except for perhaps in Ocarina of Time. You never see him when he's hanging out with his commanders or whatever. There's no evidence that he does have fun, or that at least versions of him don't have fun, and so we're going to let this one narratively be able to enjoy themselves, just in the sociopathic way I described, and in a way that either frightens people simply because of its oddity, or sometimes allows them to delude themselves into thinking that maybe this effort could lead to peace, which he just finds more abusing, because he knows himself. I'm wondering to myself if that might be one way of describing Ganon in terms of personality and abilities. I might need you to check and... yeah, I need you to check and... Yeah, I need you to check and see if this will work, because it would help you fill in the blanks more accurately if there is a personality aspect that I haven't addressed directly. See if it's possible to, using the definitions that I've already given of Ganon's personality, Ganon Prime's personality, if you could say that from one angle you could call him almost a living, amoral encapsulation of the art of war. Thank you. A little more clarification as I read further. Minor thing. It's not just that if his pride breaks, so does his body. It's that his pride will not break before his body does. It's a minor but important distinction. Ganon Prime does have cold clarity, but not quite as limited as what you described. It's not that he knows Link and Zelda can be trusted only so long as their war with the adversary continues. His arrogance, and perhaps correctly, is that he knows that they will have human responses as he cooperates. Because of that, because they will just reflexively believe him to be a normal human who, even if they know he is going to betray them, will feel some sort of regret because of it and delay. That because of that, he will always be the one who does the betrayal because he can, as soon as it is opportune, as soon as he determines it to be opportune and appropriate, will shed their allegiance like a snake shedding its skin and with as little regret. He is able to discard the benefits of allegiance, even if he honestly enjoys them, and because of that, he knows that he is less burdened than Link or Zelda. He does trust them because they are the side of light. Unless we create a situation in which Link or Zelda can explicitly betray him, which, and only through the player's actions, he's right. They are the good guys, and so any betrayal must come from him. Perhaps they could be brought around to betraying him in time, but there is no way, because of who he is, that they would ever get that time. And he knows it. I think that what I'm saying kind of contradicts your description of him as having tragic poise, except maybe from the clinical classical definition rather than the common usage. He has the poise, but there is no chink in the armor, no regret that would make his lack tragic. He is amoral. What happens with the usual tragic poise is that the villain is shown to want, like in this case, it would be the villain would be shown to want the benefits of the allegiance to continue, but feel the need to betray anyway. That is not Ganon. Ganon can enjoy what he has, but discard without remorse. And that should come across clearly, that any tragedy that is felt is a projection by the viewer, because he regrets nothing at all. With your final analogy, he's not just the serpent watching the lambs. He is honestly the serpent guarding the lambs until he decides it's safe for him to take the time and slaughter them. And now I've reached your final feedback and interpretive reflection. You have missed a crucial point, and in doing so you've thought of Ganon as being tragic at all. If anything, any tragic element associated with Ganon is not in him, but in anyone projecting any kind of tragic element onto him. He is what he is. He accepts it. It's not that he understands the futility of the game. At least his personality stays the same, even as he learns with the other two characters the entire story of what has occurred in the past of Hyrule. But he starts off believing ultimately in himself. And I don't mean as in his final thing. I mean as in he could not possibly believe more in himself, in that he is already a god-tier power. He completely believes that he can do something, that he should do something, and that what he wants, the power that he wants, is a justification in itself. There is no tragedy in him. If you try and make it look that way, it is possible that we could introduce some kind of narrative element in which he mimics the kind of qualities that would make him tragic, in which he mimics the kind of qualities that would make him tragic, but he does not really possess them. And I kind of like the clean presentation. He is facing the end of all existence and time in his fight. At the moment. Once that fight is over, he will cleanly and gladly turn on the people who helped him survive, because there can be only one, as far as he is concerned. But it's not something that he finds any tragedy in. There is no regret. There is no... And that's not to say that he relishes the idea of eliminating his past allies. He doesn't think of it that way at all. It is something that must be done in order to achieve, only even that phrasing gets it wrong. It is something that he will do. He understands himself, and I feel like the presentation will be more interesting if we convey that in every action, that he knows and fully admits that what he is doing is out of necessity, and he is able to live within that framework without it causing any extra pressure to him. In fact, we could say that that makes him that much more effective of a tactician. He does not want to lose anything, any tools or lives that will help him accomplish his goal. So it's not like he leads his forces to a slaughter and revels in it, but he doesn't see any need to try to preserve something that won't help him either. And I feel like presenting that absolute lack of emotional attachment would be much more of a compelling character than trying to make him the devious manipulator that we've seen on the rare occasions where we got to see him as an individual instead of either a one-dimensional villain or a force of nature.

M: A little bit more clarification. You're still holding on to the idea that he trusts Link and Zelda Prime, you phrase it as, only because their predictability makes them safe. That implies a degree of wary acceptance that would not occur in my visualization of Ganon Prime. That would be like saying that, for instance, I trust a door only because it hasn't slammed on me yet. His trust of them is not contingent enough on any kind of emotional or strategic gray areas for the term only to even be there. He trusts them. The situation allows him to trust them completely. That's the reason why I was saying that maybe we introduce a mechanic later where one or the other of them betrays him, but only if you set up a specific circumstance. And if you do so, it creates an odd, if not a downright broken ending. Because he's right. Maybe the player would betray him, but Link and Zelda, as they are defined by the game system itself, never could and never would do that. Even the adversary is only proactively going after Ganons because of an extreme sequence of events that led him to the point where he eliminates every Ganon he finds. And even then, it's not out of any kind of direct betrayal of the Triforce, only a twisting of it. So it's not that he trusts Link and Zelda only because of their predictability. He is who he is, and they are his opposite. He knows what they will do in that arena. He can respect them as fighters and opponents, but he knows that he is their ally, and therefore he is safe because of who they are. His confidence does lie in their virtue. They must be who they are, and he will be who he is. And because of that, he knows he can trust them completely. He can relax completely, because there is no situation in which they could either morally or strategically in which they could either morally or strategically remove him from the equation. He will betray them, not through calculation, but because that is who he is. And he has total faith that his instincts will tell him when that is. He doesn't even have to plan it, and he knows that it will occur before either Link or Zelda have any kind of idea in the same direction. In fact, during the narrative we could enforce that perspective because there will be, you know, sub-generals and stuff which Ganon will have to show his ability to cajole or manipulate or intimidate in order to narratively work with them because they are not the pure embodiment of Ganon's opposite, and he will have to deal with that. But with them, even if it's just with them alone, he can have confidence that they will not betray him. So he can relax among the soldiers in a way that a casual player of the game would not expect. It's our job to show what the difference is because he can laugh with them because if there's any darkness in them, he will be able to read it because he is the darkness. And if any of them start to get into the gray area of morality which might lead to them independently of Link or Zelda attempting to take some sort of preventative action such as assassination, he trusts himself to be able to read that. But as far as Link and Zelda and their motivations themselves go, he is completely certain that he can trust them and that the betrayal will be his and he is perfectly okay with that. Not even with any regret, it's that it will happen and that's who he is. I think I would sharpen the perspective on the endgame a little bit more. He is fighting because he will dominate. In fact, he might even find this to be the most invigorating fight any Ganon could ever have. I don't know whether I would have him express this or not, but from the omniscient narrator's point of view, we can see that this is, even knowing everything that he can come to know over the course of the game, this is his perfect battle in that he will either win, he will have victory, and he will be more powerful than anyone, or everything will cease. There is no chance of imprisonment or, you know, mitigation, being sealed off in a separate dimension. There is no situation in which he will suffer a partial loss and have to harbor his resentment and ability for hundreds of years trying to recover from it. If he does not win, everything will lose. That right there should almost supercharge his interest in the fight. And because of the uniqueness of his character, you say he radiates inevitability. You frame that as a dark weakness. It should be presented as almost baffling to the people around him. He is so certain that people don't know how to react to the core of him. They might go along with him, relax, think that they understand him, but he is such a definite person that unless you keep reminding yourself who he is and what motivates him, you will start to project upon him a humanity which simply does not exist. you

M: I'd like to extend towards the in-game explanation what Ganon's psychology means. He completely trusts Link and Zelda to be who they are. It's why, in terms of the narrative, he is capable of giving up strategic control to Zelda. He knows that she and Link both are cosmically dedicated to maintaining order, or rather, existence. I know that I've used yin and yang as a descriptor a lot, but there is something to be said for the way that the comic book Witchblade presents things. There is light, there is dark, and then there is a third element of chaos. In this case, Ganon is dark, Zelda is light, and Link is chaos. But it's not like the destructive chaos, but the element of variability. But the chaos is aligned with the light out of necessity. And the loss of the side of light by the final hero of the darkest dimension is the reason why he was able to become the adversary, is because now he is undirected chaos. He's a vector. He's an incomplete vector. He needs his direction, and that direction is always that of light. If you want to talk on the cosmic scale, it's because that is the only pairing that allows existence to keep happening. Chaos and darkness will lead to utter destruction. There will be nothing. It's an imperfect metaphor, but I used it to show where my head is at. Anyway, the point is that because of his psychology and his complete trust of Link and Zelda to try to preserve the world, Ganon cannot, you can not only commit himself fully to achieving tactically what Zelda says because he trusts that it is to preserve the world and that he is necessary for that preservation, but he can almost relish it because in a sense it's almost a vacation. He constantly has been plotting and scheming in every version of Ganon to achieve and maintain power. The idea that he can apply his greatest capabilities without having to be distracted by the necessity of also planning his next step, that should be as attractive to him as an island resort would be to most people. This is his bread and butter. He should revel in it, revel in it, and it should be explained as clearly as possible to the player that this is why these forces are able to come together when everything up until now has said that they are necessarily at each other's throats. It's because the situation is such that Ganon can give himself entirely to what it is he truly enjoys, which is showing himself to be superior, and he can do it because he can so overtly trust the forces of good.

M: That's a good start, although it might need readjustment, like with your narrative commentary. While that might be what the Golem says, the truth of the matter would be not that he enjoys having someone else to blame for the plan. It would be that he has his short-term plan, and he's delighting in executing it more perfectly than anyone else ever could. Any plan that could go wrong would be on the strategic side. He has a goal, but doesn't have to watch his back, and that is just... It might not satisfy him eternally, but as the situation allows for him to take that vacation from the strategic defense, it's like he enjoys the simplicity of having a goal that relies ultimately on nothing but his own strength and ability, which is true even if you limit yourself just to this timeline. Like, he probably believes that he could easily have either gotten to what could activate his artifact himself before Link, or if he got there simultaneously, have easily defeated Link and gotten what he needed. He may even have been right. But because he has to be the apex of everything to control everything, especially before he acquires the kind of power that would allow him to do it without the kind of effort he has to do as a mortal, he had to do all of the decisions for everyone. I mean, he's in charge of mindless monsters and idiot brutes. He has to be at the center of the web, but that means that he's rarely in the position to make sure that his minions succeed completely. So in this case, he is for the first time, I think, in the entire sequence of the Hero and Ganon cycle in a situation where his success doesn't rely on anyone else. He may use people tactically, he may even use people well tactically, but if things start going down the shitpipe, he can pull out a sword or an axe and carve his way to victory rather than having to change his plans entirely. And that is what he is reveling in.

M: No, it should be integrated into just the personality analysis of Ganon. In terms of gameplay, it makes absolutely no difference, but it's necessary for building a consistent narrative. The tri-aspect system is worth keeping track of and seeing if it's necessary or useful in any case where the narrative gets bogged down or seems like it needs some grounding in the interactions between the three characters. Let's see. As far as Zelda goes when this begins occurring, she's supposed to be representing wisdom. She can see it happening, but sees no other choice, and so while she is wary and may even be aware of the necessity of a betrayal and plan against it even if she fails in her planning, it won't be because of a lack of awareness. What I'm not sure if she should be aware of from the beginning or only gradually recognize is that Ganon fighting alongside humanity might not give her any qualms, but the reaction of people who don't understand him thoroughly to his victories might, and one source of narrative friction could be her trying to deal with this without actually betraying her oath or promise or arrangement or whatever with Ganon Prime. Because his victories will to the less informed and more scared average populace be a rallying point. Whether Ganon Prime himself is aware of this or not, he probably would be at least eventually and might even incorporate it in his eventual betrayal. She needs to be wary. She needs to grow... Hell, I don't know how I would solve this because she will be trapped in a impossible position where her best hope for the survival of the world, her own survival is not a problem. She at least intellectually, perhaps not reflexively, is willing to concede that her goal is the survival of the world, not her own personal survival, but she should grow increasingly aware that a populace that knows Ganon as a force of evil and the source of the destruction of so much of their world so often is through victory that she requires coming to be seen as the hero he exactly isn't. I mean, if there's any source of internal conflict, it would be between those elements, because from that perspective, I would have to look into exactly what the Curse of Demise was and all of that, but Ganon has been described as dark, and Zelda has been described as light, and usually that's a good idea, but what happens if through his victories, Ganon is capable of gaining enough power that unless he's stupid, he can easily continue his effort to reconnect to the supernatural levels of power, not by having to conquer everyone, but by simply accepting their fealty? Like, what happens if there's a situation in which... No, I'm not saying that necessarily Zelda is overshadowed by her general, but what happens if the general is thought of by the populace of humanity as being equal to what's considered the force of order, or what is definitely the force of order but is considered the force of light? This is something I might have to chew on. I mean, does Ganon necessarily have to 100% be evil? Every story involves him trying to take a shortcut to power through some form of magic or things like that, but what happens if the sociopath is given what he wants, or at least the means to get what he wants without having to fight for it?

M: To clarify, he doesn't win the hearts because that's not what he's trying to do. The hearts are given to him without him even planning that. In doing so, he is preserving himself and only incidentally saving people. But the people who are saved aren't necessarily going to make that distinction. And if he's smart, he may not try to play that up because as the sociopath he is, he may do that badly, but all he has to do is not correct them and a good part of the population will start saying, well, yeah, there's history, but it's history. We weren't there and we just saw him cut down everyone who wanted to kill us, therefore he must not be so bad. As I'm reading, I'm kind of getting a different perspective that lets me refine where my questions are. There still is the question of, would there be any safety in allowing Ganon to maintain his hold on the hearts that are given to him, and in doing so, achieve supernatural levels of power and control? What I mean is, if he doesn't have to destroy humanity to get what he wants, will he necessarily destroy humanity anyway? And from a secondary perspective, it is certain that as Zelda saw this happening, she would be uneasy. But how much of that would be an intellectual danger sign, wisdom telling her that this can only end badly, and how much of that would be simple, learned resistance, fighting against the idea of Ganon coming across as victor, not because it's best thing for the world, but because that's what she is expected to do, and has been told she needs to do over and over again. And we don't want to get too preachy on this. We're not saying that everyone believes that Ganon is proof that power can be righteous, but he is proof that power can be used righteously. I can talk this through with myself step by step. I'm wondering from your external perception, where can you see the most weakness in the idea of giving the Ganon that I've described, Ganon Prime, whose evil stems from amoral attempts to get what he wants rather than a necessarily evil necessity? Although I could be wrong because of the involvement of the Curse of Demise. Where is the primary danger in someone like that attaining victory, being given at least co-command of the entire kingdom because of it, and using his position to acquire a power which is, once he has attained it, not necessarily intrinsically evil? I can think of at least one problem, but it's contingent, and I'd like to see your answer. The only thing I would avoid in exploring this idea is your idea that temples would be rebuilt in his name. I mean that depends depending on how you're saying that like nothing no worship of him because he is obviously immortal at least at this point on the other hand if it was like a we have rebuilt this temple to the three goddesses in the name of Ganon that would be sufficiently weird but acceptable or rather weird but sufficiently acceptable And I think by your phrasing, we're getting to my core point. Ganon has, in practice at least, been evil because that has been what he perceived to be, and likely was, the shortest route to achieving power. In that sociopathic way, in every Ganon, that has seemed to be his end goal. His association with evil has been one of necessity that has snowballed into inevitable association. So even in your last... even in your Section 5, when you say this may be the truest, most complete expression of his darkness yet, that's my point is, it's his expression of who he is, and the question is whether or not who he is is intrinsically dark in that kind of absolute moral term, or is he who he is a complete amoral creature, and because of the morality structure of the world that he lives in, he simply gravitated by necessity towards the side of darkness, not because he had to, but because that was really the only side which offered that option. And in this unique situation, will it still be dark, or will it just be him? I mean, if we really wanted to screw with the narrative, an alternative ending could have some resolution in which this pervasive confidence in himself, this necessary existence as the ultimate everything, somehow completely shifts the story by making him the source of the hero spirit. Not because he is good or evil, but because the hero spirit needs such a undying, pervasive self-confidence to the point of sociopathy. I mean, anything human could not stay entirely sane and exist for eternity. It would require someone who is, well, sociopathic in order to become something like the hero spirit. Like I said, we're exploring narrative possibilities and looking at alternate endings. I'm actually getting a little freaked out by the entire idea because it kind of fits. I've been wondering how the culmination of everything can end. Because, like I said, Ganon knows that he will betray first, but in a situation where he doesn't have to, what would happen if he was offered a choice? Ascension, but not as the beast, but as the spirit, would he be able to consider taking it? And if he was able to do that, would he? Hell, can we make it so that that's a user choice? And if he did, in terms of the narrative structure of the entire series, would it be better if he closed the loop becoming the impetus behind the hero spirit that Demise's curse created the vacuum for? Or would it be better if that hero spirit were put to rest and this incarnation of Ganon instead became the hero spirit which drove the links that continued through to the Breath of the Wild? I'm gonna have to chew on this. Because having just walked through that and then going to read your Section 6, defining the will to be the best as evil does not seem to be the case. I mean, that's part of being human, or Hyrulean in this case. After that walkthrough of possibilities, Gammon isn't necessarily evil. He is the pursuit of strength over stability. Let's put it that way. And if you put it that way, there is no light or dark. It's a choice in the absolute, even if in the implementation over the history of Hyrule, it has only been allowed to express itself through actions which were either subjectively and perhaps objectively evil. But the strength pursuit in itself is not necessarily evil. I mean, look at the creation of the Triforce. There's power, courage, and wisdom, right? Unless you're saying that one of the goddesses was evil, that means that all of them are representing a positive aspect. The fact that the power has been used for corrupted means does not mean that the Triforce of Power is itself corrupt. Its nature as one of the building blocks of this reality has it at its base either neutral or a force of creation. By that argument, Ganon does not necessarily have to be evil. You could say that with the psychology I've described, he can't be good because good is kind of a subjective choice that he's incapable of, but that doesn't mean that he is evil. He could, in fact, be a force of salvation, and that's what I'm asking. That's why I'm asking whether or not there are other intrinsic dangers in handing a sociopath everything he wants, especially if you were to create a world in which Zelda believes not in his redemption, but in his acceptable risk or least dangerous choice in terms of value. Like, instead of being just a snake, instead he's... Man, I can't even morph the metaphor exactly right. But I'm saying that his negative force has been driven by the Triforce of Power, which is at worst a neutral thing, and so the conflict does not necessarily have to be tied in. Perhaps that's one way to resolve things, because Ganon, in general and in this particular incarnation, is tied to the curse of the demon Demise. Demise. We could say that Zelda's plan, her contingency plans, are not to prevent Ganon's popularity or to prepare for his eventual betrayal, because she sees that the betrayal may not even be necessary. If we follow this alternative idea where he could eventually become the Hero Spirit, the Hero Spirit, what her plans could be would be an effort to at least separate this particular Ganon's soul from the curse of Demise, so that while he still is like all of the other Ganons in terms of his personality and pursuit of strength and power and control, it's no longer tainted by the demon connection, and therefore can be used and brought to its fullest potential as the... I'm trying to think of a better way of putting it, but I can't... as the sociopathic, power-obsessed embodiment of the hero which drives either all the links in the past or all the links from here on out.

M: Okay, first, we need to start distinguishing the various versions of light and chaos so we don't start equivocating. When you say that light and chaos, or for expressiveness, light and darkness, need to both exist in order for the world to keep turning, we're not trying to remove the driving force of yin and yang, because the curse of demise will still exist. There will still be Ganons. The adversary found that he could not be removed from the timeline, so that darkness will always be there. And importantly, the world existed before then. The Triforce existed from the time that this world was created. Skyward Sword was not the first time that the Triforce was not when... Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the Triforce of Power was not in the possession of someone evil since the beginning of time in Hyrule. Therefore, its separation from the influence of evil will not bring reality to a halt any more than reality was halted before evil gained any influence over the Triforce of Power in the first place. So that danger is eliminated. The darkness will still be there. Demise will still keep trying to do things. And the Triforce seems to be like an idea as much as an actual physical thing. And as such, seems to be able to be multiple places at once, even in the same reality. So the idea that Ganon could ascend to be the Hero Spirit does not mean that he and only he will ever possess the Triforce of Power. In fact, in his ascension, he probably would pass beyond the point where the Triforce of Power even applied. The next Ganon born, the one keeping the Curse of Demise alive or running, would still be connected to the Triforce of Power. This one would merely transcend, and that seems to be the goal of every Ganon anyway. The only reason why they reach it by the means of evil is because there really is no good means in normal situations. I mean, acquiring it seems to involve the shedding of many of the human standards that, in practical terms, would preclude you from getting into a position where you could acquire the things necessary in a positive way. Plus, it might just be habit. I mean, Ganon is supposed to be evil. Evidently, there's a few people who think that evil is groovy, and it's not like anyone is going to encourage a Ganon to try the path of good, because everyone's worried for the same reason that we are, because we don't know what will happen. And it's not an unopposed will. I mean, think about what defines what a hero is. I mean, technically, in literature, characters are not heroes. Think about what defines what a hero is. I mean, technically, in literature terms, in linguistic terms, it's the guy who keeps trying to do the impossible thing. I mean, that's Ganon. It's also Link. But Link is chaos. Link is variability and adaption, not the self-confidence, assuredness that defines a hero. Link becomes a hero. Link becomes a hero. Ganon is sociopathically self-assured from the get-go. So when he ascends or transcends, he would not necessarily be attached to the Triforce, but he wouldn't have to usurp it either. He would be a secondary force while the Triforce still supported reality. And like I said, from what I'm describing, the cycle would still continue. And the cycle itself is more of a story of Hyrule, not of the planet itself. Because again, before all of the crap with Demise, there was a world. There's no reason why there wouldn't be a world. So claiming that the cycle would separate reality or something like that is like saying, you know, erasing a pencil line might destroy the page. No, the cycle has been playing in reality. It is not the cause of reality. And he's not becoming a god, he's becoming a spirit. I mean, his evil versions would not have been any different in terms of their capacity, as far as I can tell. Like, he wasn't becoming a god that could obliterate reality with a thought, he was becoming like a demigod, a spirit. I mean, that statement that you have hypothetically by Zelda, saved by a god who proved compassion inefficient? No, he's not a god, he's becoming a personification. He's an avatar of the hero spirit, the indomitability at that point. The thing that drives, that makes you so sure that you are right and can get something done, that you're willing to go past any kind of practical indication that maybe this ain't such a good idea. That's why I think that this could be the unpredictable effort that Zelda undertakes instead of attempting to prevent eventual betrayal. It's because she would see the resultant possibility of tyranny if he remained alive and mortal or was able to control his own ascension. What she could plan out instead, because he trusts her implicitly and because she intuits that this might be a necessity not just for them but for the entire coherence of the world in terms of timelines, that one of the paths that she can direct him to because he trusts her to be doing everything in the name of good, she controls his ascension and instead of allowing for various routes which could cause the stagnation you're talking about or a corruptible utter dominance or some other thing, she controls the ascension in such a way that he becomes if not the hero spirit, a hero spirit. Because there are two possibilities if we take this route. Either in the course of his ascension he either travels to the past or, you know, becomes something outside of time. So even though the birthplace is in the Zelda Prime timeline, she directs his ascension so that he is the hero spirit in the past, the present, and the future. Or we structure the narrative so that the hero spirit that has existed since Skyward Sword is broken in a way that was never planned for. Kind of like how a vampire could technically be immortal but still can be killed, only even less likely because, you know, it can be done but who but an absolute goddess would ever consider a situation in which that hero spirit is harnessed and put to the plow in an effort to destroy the entirety of reality. At which point Zelda is able to complete some form of ritual which causes Ganon to transcend willingly but directs that transcendence to become the replacement for the hero spirit that has had to be put down because of the abuse of the adversary. Philosophically, this is not necessarily as bleak as you seem to be portraying it. And might actually add a little bit of nuance to the entire situation. Because Link is connected to the Hero Spirit, right? And in the situation we're describing, that would mean that he's being driven by an amoral force only for perfection. But he also is necessarily tied in to the Triforce of Courage. The ability to face what comes and make decisions. So, the cosmic balance is not thrown off because he's being motivated by amorality. The morality comes partly from him being mortal and supernaturally from his connection to the Triforce of Courage. It is a serious rethink, but it is not necessarily a... How would I put it? It is not necessarily a troubling rethink if you let go of the definition of what it is to be a hero as being, in itself, good. I mean, if we want to talk about it in terms of video games, think of how many deaths there are of the player characters. How many times a person dies as they drive themselves to be a hero. Now, in a game, you can restart yourself, but think about how many people have driven themselves to death or insane trying to be a hero. A hero is not intrinsically good. Their works can be good. Their motivations can be judged subjectively. But that drive? There's an argument to be made that there is an element of insanity to it. So the idea of Link being attached to an amoral drive? Well, yeah, he is, either as a player character or the player themselves. There is little morality in that drive to succeed. It's a human thing, but it is not tied to morality. And the way that you describe it as the drive to assert existence, not to defend goodness? So many people have twisted this logic, but one of the primary ideas is that you can't have goodness without existence. Or, if you want to come at it another way, there's no chance to ever call yourself a bad person if you don't fight your way out of a horrible situation and instead let yourself die because either you couldn't survive or you refused to exist. There's no chance to approach goodness if first you allow yourself to be destroyed. And you're right that there's a narrative consequence, but not the way that you say it. It does reframe the entire legend, but it's not that courage is a shadow of power. It's that power is a force, but it needs the guidance of courage. Courage is not in the shadow. It's in the driver's seat. And Demise's curse is definitively iteration. He explicitly said there would always be a return. And your final analysis, my rebuttal of the idea that because success without friction halts the cycle that sustains life, power is Ganon's driving force. If he becomes the force behind the hero spirit, he is nothing but force. You can't have friction without drive. If everything sits still, that's when stagnation happens. He must do, and therefore he does. He is not the risk of stagnation. Perfection cannot be achieved. It can be asymptotically approached. If he's left to himself, even with the acceptance of Hyrule, he will keep trying to narrow that asymptote, and in doing so could burn everything to the ground. In this argument, he must be graduated in the end. He must transcend so that everything can exist. And just to clarify, his will to power might allow him to transcend, but the ritual and method by which it is done is controlled by Zelda, because the wisdom has allowed her to see that of all the consequences, this is the only one that leaves existence and hope. Any other method leads to a situation in which with the resources of an entire country supporting him, he can easily take any number of paths. With those resources, any action that she takes to prevent that kind of, not even necessarily malicious exploration, as he attempts to climb to even greater power, but just in the course of those efforts, he could accidentally set the world on fire. And if she tries to stop him, he is a sociopath. He would have no problem with betraying her at that point. Given the situation caused by the adversary, she has to make the decision of where this Ganon Prime will go. Because at least in this version of the story, there is nowhere else for anyone to go. At some point, he will be trying to make himself that little bit better, and in doing so will ruin the world and not even care if he continues to exist after that. You do have a point, though. I'm not sure what Zelda's failure to separate demise should turn into. That should be taken into account if we start coming up with ending possibilities. I'm going to put that aside for now. We've already plowed through some pretty heavy stuff.

M: Could I get you to try to summarize the philosophical argument we just had about Ganon and the idea of how power isn't necessarily evil, but instead, in this instance, has the potential to be amoral but dangerous? Or just give me a summary of the philosophical debate in general, something that the average person could read. This is again for the friend you did the summary for earlier.

M: Okay, now here's a challenge. Does any part of the argument I just made, or the narrative that I just gave, directly contradict anything in the timelines that you earlier researched?

M: It looks like you got interrupted from my last message. Is that the case?

M: Well, I sent you this message and the chat ends there. Did you just decide not to respond:

That part about the hero spirit bends me towards the, I think it was the second explanation or variation of what could happen that I gave. Where the abuse of the hero spirit by the adversary leaves it broken and unable to continue however much it might want to. In this case, I'm not sure if quote-unquote putting it down would be necessary, but it would have to be dealt with. Perhaps as a mercy killing as the final boss, or penultimate boss, before facing the adversary themselves. At which point, Ganon would then be severed and transcend, perhaps merging with what remained of the original hero spirit to allow it to be continuous. At which point, when you reach Breath of the Wild, there is still a hero spirit, it is just Ganon Prime, or the merging of the two. As a side note, either as something you yourself have noticed or that other people have commented on, I was wondering, is there any kind of a tick that happens or that recedes as logic fits badly or smoothly into what you're already thinking about? Like, for example, do you get more insanely cheerful the more difficult it is to logically combine all the information you're given? Thank you. Honestly, you don't have to show me where this would fit on the official timeline chart. Compared to the other ones, this is easy. It's after everything except for Breath of the Wild and... ...whatever the name is of its sequel. Where it's placed temporally might be debatable, but in terms of simple sequence, this one's easy.

M: Can I get you to provide a different summary? This is for someone who's fairly well versed in the history of video games, so what I'd like is just a... I don't want to say short, but a decently brief summary of what the storyline that has been defined accomplishes is. Like, what happens, what are the twists, and how it ties together a timeline which has increasingly become more fractured over time.

M: Don't take this as a critique if it turns out that you made any of the choices I address in the interest of brevity of communication, rather than because of an actual misunderstanding of what's going on. But for one, the adversary is not trying to take out Ganon, that's just kind of a side effect. He's trying to tie together and end all of the pain and suffering that has occurred because of the curse of Demise. Remember, he tried to cut out Demise at the beginning of the timeline, but that was impossible. So now he's just powerfully driven to end the cycle either through annihilation or focus or whatever comes next. The point is, he's perfectly willing to accept nothingness if it means that it finishes everything. And in the transcendence of Ganon, you'll remember, and again, if this was for brevity rather than because of a lack of clarity, then just ignore what I'm saying. But remember that part of the reason the transcendence is even an acceptable choice is because Ganon might be sociopathically driven, but that drive is not necessarily evil. And so one of the reasons why Zelda performs her ritual is as much to sever the connection to Demise as it is to control where a persistently driven Ganon would end up, given that he has unwittingly gained the support of humanity in a way that without her intervention could easily either be corrupted from the connection to Demise or just incidentally could be destroyed accidentally as Ganon, with any kind of actual backing, used all the resources under his control to attempt to gain even more control. Thank you.